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[Specter]

Im heading in Tuesday to get measured for my new racing leathers at the Dainese store in Orlando.

While there I am picking up a riding jacket for the road that has an airbag in it as well.
My current jacket has L2 armor on the back, and in the arms and all the places armor is typically able to be put into a leather jacket.

My question is.  I was told that with an airbag system, you no longer need to have armor in the jackets.
I have also been told that armor just adds to the protection offered and should be worn as well for max protection.
I have also been told that you need to lower the level of armor or it will hinder the airbag...
... you get the idea...

What are your opinions and experiences IRT armor protection in leather riding jackets and having the airbag systems as well?

Keep armor, ditch it, what?

Im inclined to keep it, but if it really offers no genuine further REAL protection, then yah ditch it for the weight and comfort level.

Thanks
Aaron

[TheRan]

Don't you just get whatever configuration the manufacturer has decided to put in the jacket? Unless you're having something custom made. I would imagine they all still have armour in the usual places, on the off chance the airbag doesn't suffice and for the areas that it doesn't cover (arms and outer shoulders). I don't really see how armour would hinder the airbag.

[jotjotde]

Nice! I treated myself to a MTM Dainese two-piece last year. First a bit tight, but that gets better over time. Though I would wish for a bit more room in the arms to allow for thicker underwear in colder weather.

If not using a leather moto suit, I am wearing a Dainese Smart Vest airbag  inside a moto jacket in combination with moto jeans. The vest offers protection of back, ribs and breast, so the protectors in shoulders and elbows are IMO still necessary.

If I understood correctly, you will buy the D-Air jacket, right? Then I am unsure if this jacket has a pouch where you can put in an extra back protector. Sure, you can surely still wear a 'turtle' BP  in case the airbag does not deploy.

IMO that would be too much, I rather would try to increase safety 'below'. I'm curious what kind of pants and boots you will wear with that jacket.

[Specter]

Well, the jacket is a leather jacket that has the airbag in iit.
There are also vests out, which you put under your clothing that are airbag vests. 

Alpine Star makes one that has 2 algorhythms,  one for road another for track, when you activate the vest you tell it which mode to go in.  It fits under your existing leather jacket.  My current jacket is a Dainese, leather, with a level 2 back plate and the max the other stuff you can shove in wherever.  I tried the A.S. vest on under it, yah it's a bit tight and sticks out a bit on the back with the armor and what comes with the vest.  Taking the armor back plate out of the jacket, and the vest fits a lot easier in there.  I little tight, but, so was the jacket when I first bought it and it worked itself in.  Id assume it'd work itself in a bit with the vest under it and all will be fine.

The nice thing about the vest is you can wear it under anything, so it can go on track, on the road with just a flannel shirt on it really if you wanted to go that way etc etc.

For road riding Id wear just like the regular pants that have Kevlar lining and the kneepad high impact inserts on them.
The boots are just standard street boots, unless I know it's going to be an hours long ride, then I'll put on my racing boots because they give me a bit better feedback on the bike, (if you are going to be hours in a formation it helps) and they are ventilated so are a bit more comfy and less stuffy/smelly than my standard street bike boots.

On the track, it's a full racing leathers, track boots, full gauntlet gloves and full face helmet.  They generally will not let you race with anything less.  When you come into a corner at 140 mph you'll understand why.

I find that my chain is a bit loose again and I need to adjust it, I can hear it rattling at low speeds.  How can you tell when a chain is stretched too much and you really should replace it?

Aaron

[jotjotde]

I see we both have more or less the same stuff.
For my daily commuting I am wearing moto-jeans (kevlar/aramid and knee/hip protectors) but I am asking myself if there is something safer without gearing up in full-scale leather suit. Airbag-pants haven't been put on the market yet 


OFF TOPIC
Regarding your chain question, I can recommend getting a chain gauge like this one https://tsubaki.eu/assets/tsubaki-chain-wear-indicator-v2.jpg
Measuring in several places along the chain gives you an indication if there is an uneven lenghening which would be bad - if that's the case I would replace the chain ASAP.
A rattling chain which was quiet before might indicate the beginning demise. When you know that chain has already seen more than 10,000 km it might be advisable to have a replacement available. IMO if you ride as spirited as I think you do  I would replace the chain quite early to be on the safe side.

[Specter]

Im finding the rattling is more the chain dragging along the guide when kind of idling or slowing down, not under a lot of braking or pushing it around in a parking lot or the last few feet of a stop.

What I DO notice is it seems there is more motor noise, or generation type noise, but being I have my regen set as high as possible, am wondering if that's just par for the course, I mean when you are regenning 30 KW of power, yah im sure it's going to make some noise on the generator.

As for the airbag pants, actually yes they kind of DO have them.
Alpine star has them or the closest thing to it.  The TechAir10 series. 
Although it says it's for racing / track only, i called and was told that yes you can use it on the street but you
ABSOLUTELY MUST. make sure you are in the proper modes when riding.  ie if you are on the track, having it in rode mode is a big no no,  me thinks it'll set off when it should not.  and when on the road, being on track mode, is a no go, it probably won't set off on stuff that it should.

https://www.alpinestars.com/products/tech-air-10-airbag-system

You can wear it under regular riding clothing as well, so if you have a fiber jacket instead of leather it works just fine.  I was told you can wear it under regular clothiing too but that, as soon as the airbag gets road rash it's done, so having genuine protective pants, protects YOU and your 1000 investment much better.

Im looking at motorcycle pants that look like blue jeans.  I use the steel worker or whatever ones they are called.  Seems the others have very FEW sizes to choose from, and my short fat ass is NOT one of the sizes they come in so am kind of stuck with very few choices.



I went in and got measured out today for my track leathers.
Good god they must have taken 30 measurements all over the place, back and forth front and back but im sure it's going to fit like a glove.  Too bad the wait is goig to be a few months, ugh!

Another perk, since i went to the Yamaha Champions School, I got  discount on all my purchases today and saved a good grand on everything.  That's always nice.

Now I just got to pick out a toy hauler to put all my charging shit and bike in and im good to go !

Aaron

[jotjotde]

Thx for the link, I was not aware that something like this in on the market.
What I note, though, is the absense of knee and elbow protectors, so in my view you still need to wear a moto pants and jacket of some sort.


The MTM suit will fit tight, that I can confirm 
It will take some time until the new leather which will be stiff in the beginning will get smoother. Regarding production time I can report that my suit came a month earlier than expected (3 instead of 4), so maybe you are lucky as well.

[Specter]

Well, yes elbow and knee protection, you'd have  to have a full suit at that point to hold them in place!

Most airbag systems up to this point only protected the upper body, this one is trying to work it's way down to the hip area / pelvis area.  Id give it a few years and I bet they come out with a suit that protects your upper arms / legs and elbows/knees as well.

I can see some sort of airbag total  undergarment in the future where you'll need full leathers or jacket / pants over them.  maybe it'll be like Demolition Man where you just get instantly encased in styrofoam to soften the impact !

Im hoping it don't take too long but was told lead time was around 3 months BUT they work harder at christmas time. so we'll have to wait and see.

Aaron

[Demoni]

To me the big advantage of a air bag is it's ability to immobilize your head in an accident. Akin to how a HANS device protects a car driver during a impact.
During rapid deceleration events both devices should minimize the movement of your neck to prevent spinal injury (whiplash).
Depending on the bags design the other benefit would be added padding to the area around the rest of your spine.
I would still want CE2 armor protecting my vital parts.


As for your question about chain wear:
The tool linked by jotjotde does a great job in removing the uncertainty regarding the health of your bikes chain. A worn chain will rapidly wear your sprockets and greatly increase the chances of failure.
Check your chain at multiple points to find the tightest point. Adjust the chain slack at that point and then rotate the chain to find the loosest point. Recheck the slack at the loosest point, if it's outside spec it's time to replace it.
The worst thing you can do is adjust the chain at it's loosest point. This results in a chain that becomes too tight in some spots, causing excessive load on the chain links, motor and wheel bearings.
Having a chain snap when you are riding can result in locking your rear wheel, breaking your motor case or some scary damage to your leg.

[Richard230]

Speaking of airbags, last night I watched a recent episode of the TV game show "Snake Oil". One of the products that is real was a pair of motorcycle riding jeans that incorporated an airbag system that expanded under the pans to cover the rider's hips, knees and legs. Something that I had never seen before. Unfortunately the show did not mention the brand or manufacturer of the pants. The retail price was given as $600.

[Specter]

Speaking of airbags, last night I watched a recent episode of the TV game show "Snake Oil". One of the products that is real was a pair of motorcycle riding jeans that incorporated an airbag system that expanded under the pans to cover the rider's hips, knees and legs. Something that I had never seen before. Unfortunately the show did not mention the brand or manufacturer of the pants. The retail price was given as $600.

Richard, that sounds like the Alpine Stars airbag system I linked to a few posts above this one.  That would be their system 10.

600 I think is a bit low on the price, but it may be cheaper in some places.

Aaron

[jotjotde]

That airbag jeans come from a Swedish startup and as far as I understand are available through a crowdfunding platform.

I saw a price of 499 $ which sounds OK, but still offer protection for hip and upper legs only.
They need conventional knee protectors. Admittedly, a step in the right direction.

[Richard230]

That looks a lot like the picture of the pants on the Snake Oil TV contest program. BTW, on that show they pick out various marketed items and show them to the contestants, including a fake informational. Then the contestants have to decide which is "real" and which is "Snake Oil".

[jotjotde]

To me the big advantage of a air bag is it's ability to immobilize your head in an accident. Akin to how a HANS device protects a car driver during a impact.
During rapid deceleration events both devices should minimize the movement of your neck to prevent spinal injury (whiplash).
Depending on the bags design the other benefit would be added padding to the area around the rest of your spine.
I would still want CE2 armor protecting my vital parts.

If I may add that the support of the limbs is in my view one of the points why leather is superior to textiles. Normally leather garments restrict your mobility somewhat which I think is good to some extend. In case of an accident you are facing dangers of impact (that is what hard protectors and/or airbags are for). sliding (we all agree that leather is MUCH better protecting you in this case) but also tumbling. Because the leather restricts movement, I my view there is a good chance that the negative effects of tumbling (breaking of bones, overstretching of strings etc.) are mitigated.
Just recently I had to witness an accident when a rider tumbled over the pavement, limbs flailing, resulting in mutliple complicated fractures in both legs. He wore biker jeans with a leather jacket. So I think airbag plus leather is the best combination.

What I am currently looking for (and haven't found yet) is a leather pant with protectors but that doesn't look like I'm fresh from the racetrack or I'm the chairman of the local power ranger cosplay club 

[Specter]

jojo dianese has some pants like that, but realistically,  if you are wearing leather, you are going to look like you just stepped out of the blue oyster bar, or just stepped off the track.  It's just the way leather presents itself.  Try one of the biker shops, the ones that would sell leather vests and stuff like that, not necessarily the full protection but more the accessories, chaps and stuff.  Often they have leather duds that are not super thick and 'track looking'  Leather works shops, for putting your patches on your jackets / vests, stuff like that.. type shop often have a lot of leather and denim items to wear.

On the protection though, don't forget about cut and puncture protection too.  Sides of the roads are notorious for having all kinds of shit on them, metal pieces, broken class, and god only knows whatever else that has fallen off countless cars and trucks (and harleys ) over the years.  Now you go dragging through that stuff and it's going to tear your ass up !!!   The leather protects you from that.

It's easy to say, oh if you get in a wreck you  need to tuck in, you need to cross your hands over your chest, you need to bla bla bla, but in the moment, rarely do we have the luxury of calm idle thought to remember to DO all this stuff !!  Not to mention the laws of physics and centrifugal forces if you are spinning like a top are not going to cooperate either.

it may be uncomfortable,but so is a hospital bed, or a cast and pins and rods hanging out of your arms and legs for 8 weeks that look like a NASA satellite array antenna.

Aaron