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[Specter]

Unfortunately your concerns are very valid Oilcan.  I really wish they'd put a 6k charger (ie double up the one they got !!) on their bikes.  Im pretty sure the room is up in there for them to do so.  It's NOT so much for the people who are charging at home, they got all night, the 3k is fine but for those such as yourself, who have to put 100 miles or 64 miles in my case onto the bike and may only have a few hours to do it in, and not have the luxury of 'all afternoon' or the entire work day to leave the bike charging.

Even places that do have charging stations at work, if you leave your car there all day, you ARE going to eventually be pissing off the other people who want to charge, but can't, because you are there, and they know this and many start charging you hourly fees as well.  This kind of negates the bennies of an E bike.

Pretty much every 240 volt circuit is typically breakered at 30 amps, it's NO big deal really.  Asking for 6k charging capability so we can get the people in and out, is not a huge ask, but would be huge for the positive impact it could have on e charging overall.

Just my opinion on it.

Aaron

[Oilcan]

Another thing here is there are 80 amp level 2 charging options where I charge so with the rapid charger a can charge at the full 12.6 kw. As well as 48 amp charging options at 11 kw. If Energica did have a 6 kw ac onboard charger that would make it acceptable.

[DonTom]

Really interesting comparisons... very lucky to have someone daft enough to own both to listen to on the subject

One or the other of these is likely to be my next bike.

I do wonder why Zero aren't filling out their battery pack with another two modules to give it the range it needs to compete with the Experia. Stuck out the side a bit like a boxer twin. It would even fill out that strangely slim middle of the DSRX and give it a bit more of that presence that the GS Adv has.

Cas

You can match the range of the Experia range with the DSR/X.  But that will require the top-heavy power tank and then you cannot have the charge tank. But one thing is very nice about the DSR/X, many options. Pay for what you want the most.


IMO, range will be less and less important as more charge stations pop up. So I would go for the extra 6.6 KW charging before I would go with the extra range. But you do have that choice with the Zero DSR/X.

I find the 6.6 kW charging to be enough for me, the way I ride.  I like electrics mainly for my solo rides where I can take many breaks. Many short charging stops, the only long one will be for a lunch break or something like that.

I always bring a laptop computer with me, and I usually get online from the charge stops. I would rather be doing that under a shady tree in the mountains than here at home!

But the nice thing about the Experia, on one full charge it can usually go with a group of ICE bikes without needing to recharge during the trip.  But the same can be said for the DSR/X if one chooses the power tank option.

But I find for my solo rides and for many of my trips, I just like to have that extra storage space. So I decided against both, the power as well as the charge tank and to keep my DSR/X just as it is right now.

Many others will decide differently, of course. Most of it is based on riding locations.

For those who do not know, the DSR/X has a lot of storage space as a plain bike, when neither the power or charge tank is added. One of the side panels can be removed and things that you may need but not often can go there. It requires to unscrew a couple of screws. And the main tank area has even more space, and quite a bit of it, where the screwdriver for the side panel is kept, which comes with the bike. I keep my tire repair stuff in the side panel--all of it except for the battery so it can be easily kept charged. I keep the tire pump battery and a lot of other stuff in the locked tank area that is easier to get into. Just use the key.

The Experia also has some space in the "tank" area, but it is mostly filled up with the stock battery, leaving little room left for other things. To get to that space, the bike must be on and press the left bottom rear button for a few seconds. This is also the back out of the menu button when pressed but not held in. 

But add the charge tank or power tank to the DSR/X and there goes all of that extra space the DSR/X. But it is nice to have all these options.

So with options it is important to know the AC charge speed OR (not and) range of the DSR/X can come very close to matching the Experia on its range or CCS charge speed.  But only a few AC charge stations can handle the 13.2 KW, where the CCS on the Experia will always do just a little faster charging. I have seen it charge as high as 24 KW, but below 20 is more common, depending mostly on battery temperature. And drops down from there as the battery gets more charged and warmer.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Richard230]

Speaking of charge stations, I heard a report on KCBS yesterday that California says that it has completed the installation of 10K charging stations ahead of its goal. The report said that they were typically installed in "under-served" communities and at locations subject to air pollution. The report didn't say, but I assume they are all L2 outlets.

[DonTom]

Speaking of charge stations, I heard a report on KCBS yesterday that California says that it has completed the installation of 10K charging stations ahead of its goal. The report said that they were typically installed in "under-served" communities and at locations subject to air pollution. The report didn't say, but I assume they are all L2 outlets.

Yep, in CA places such as Georgetown, North San Juan, and even Bridgeport had no Level Two charge stations until this year.


And I am seeing the opposite happening with L3 DC chargers. They break and nobody repairs them. It was better three years ago than today.  Three years ago, I could take my SS9- past places such as Hawthorne, NV or Incline Village, NV and other places where the only CCS has been broken for more than a year.


This is something to consider between the two bikes.  However, when Tesla superchargers all become compatible with CCS that can be a major game changer to most areas.  Places such as Susanville, CA only have Tesla fast charging and no other fast charging.. Same with several other places. And I have yet to see even one that did not work.


At incline village, the only CCS (which does not work) is a few feet from the ten Telsa Superchargers that always work. However, Tesla has only been putting the Magic Dock in places NOT at all needed so far. Perhaps to be extra careful, so there is working CCS nearby if the Tesla Supercharger does NOT work for any non-Teslas. 


-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

Another thing here is there are 80 amp level 2 charging options where I charge so with the rapid charger a can charge at the full 12.6 kw. As well as 48 amp charging options at 11 kw. If Energica did have a 6 kw ac onboard charger that would make it acceptable.

The DSR/X charger is 6.6KW. So with two, you're at 13.2 KW which is getting close to the CCS charge times as it is also often in the teens on the Experia.


Yeah, the Experia would be the perfect bike if they could also squeeze a 6.6 KW charger in there. But with all that battery in it, it is probably not yet quite possible to have the room for both. But we know changes are coming.


But with Tesla Superchargers opening up to non-Telsas, it will greatly reduce the need for any AC charging while on the road with the Energicas. The AC charging will normally only then be used at home. Also, it will make the range less important.


The real problem is the best time to buy an electric motorcycle will be after we're all dead! So how long do we wait?


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Specter]

L2 chargers are cheap, they can be had for a few hundred dollars.

L3 chargers now, the modules are generally 10 KW and up each.  When one goes bad, its a good grand to 1500 or more dollars to swap it out I am seeing.  This is probably why you are not seeing many of them being repaired.  The OP is seeing that electric vehicle charging is not the gold mine / cash cow they promised them when they sold them the charger and they are not going to throw more good money after bad money and fix the thing.

Im  afraid that besides tesla and a few huge corps that have the money to lay out, and know how to play the game to get the government grants which are set up so that only a very select few people actually qualify for them, (which is total fucking bullshit) you are not going to see a hell of a lot of them yet.  Seriously, all things considered, there's just no money in them yet.

The best we can hope for is that the tesla thing opens up here for everyone very soon and all these super chargers, we can buy our magic wands and ccs -> tesla tap and use them.   Otherwise the price to charge is going to be quite high if you are not doing it at home. 

Aaron

[DonTom]

Today, I thought about which of the two bikes I would buy between the DSR/X and the Experia if I could only buy one or the other.

After today's ride, my mine is made up.

I would choose the Zero DSR/X (sorry, Demoni, if you're reading this.)!


Especially after what happened to me here today. The Experia has too many bugs and it's now to the point I do not trust the bike.

Today, when at South Lake Tahoe, I decided to have lunch. There are Changepoints right there, but I was already quite charged up near 80% SOC from my last chargestop here.  So I decided to use the J-plug so I would have time for lunch. Well, I ended up having the time for three or more lunches.


When I got back to the bike, the charge was only in the high 80's SOC, so I decided to stop the charge and ride on, but the bike would NOT let me turn it on to release the charge cable! When I pressed the "mode" button, it said bike must be on to continue, which is normal. I try to turn on the bike (it's keyless, but I don't think that has anything to do with this issue). I hear a click coming down the bike somewhere, but the bike would NOT turn on. So here I am stuck with a bike charging. The bike would not ask for a pin number, would not turn on using the FOB as passive nor with the fob out of range. Locked on the same screen. The screen itself did NOT look normal. The green line across the screen is from the NEXT page of the menu showing on the main page where it should not. It's the graph for KWHs used per 100 miles, showing on the main screen instead of the 2nd screen which I cannot even get to with the bike off. Here is what the screen looked like then (see attached):


So then I am wondering what will happen when the bike stops charging at 100% SOC. I was thinking that if I still have this problem after the charge stops, I cannot even call a tow truck because the charge cable will not release from the bike. I will have to break something first to get the bike free. So I am not sure what will happen.


I wait a long time, about an hour and I am at 99% SOC. 30 minutes later, the bike is still at 99% SOC and still charging at 1.1 KW and balancing the cells and is taking forever. Almost like I am stuck at 99% SOC, but I know a big slow down up there is normal, but this is longer than I expected.


There is no way that I know of to stop the charging at the Chargepoint J-AC charge station. And I am not sure if that would release the cable from the bike or not even if I could. So I just wait and wait and do a lot of walking around and such.


Finally, the bike gets to 100% SOC and the charging shuts off. Then all is normal; I can turn the bike on. So far, so good.


So I ride back home to Reno.


I am on a lonely road by Washoe Lake, so I select the cruise control. "Undefined fault" and the motor dies. I had to come to a stop and shut off the bike to get it to run again.



Some think it's because of the kill switch being touched.


But . . .


I did a little experiment on the same road. I rode at the same speed and deliberately hit the kill switch. Motor dies. No errors of any type and I can restart the bike without turning it off, still riding, by just a little pressure on the front brake level and the start button (opposite side of kill switch) Completely different symptoms, proving this fault has nothing to do with hitting the kill switch (besides the fact I am sure that I didn't). I have also had this "undefined fault" when in reverse a few times.


I have found no bugs at all on the Zero DSR/X. Has any of the DSR/X owners here found any bugs?


I will ask the opposite for the Experia owners. Have any here NOT had any bugs?


I ask that way because I won't get endless replies!


And the fact that AC charging is getting more common, and MUCH more reliable than CCS,  as more CCS chargers break and are never repaired, I see even more reasons to choose the DSR/X over the Experia.


IMO, the DSR/X has more than enough range as is, and reasonable charge times, and either can be made even better, just not both.


I am finding it is easier these days to plan a route with AC charge stations than with CCS.  CCS was better three years ago when more of them worked.


I cannot choose for others, but I would certainly take the DSR/X over the Experia now that I have a lot more miles on each.


But I assume these bugs can be worked out by Energica. But will that just mean different bugs next time? Seems to me that Zero did their FW right, as I have not yet seen any bugs with my DSR/X.


And I wonder what my next Experia bug will be.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Oilcan]

WOW sorry to hear this. I have put 4500 miles on my DSR/X since mid July and the software has been solid without any failures. I did see a warning pop up the other day when I turned on the key and put up the side stand and turned on the kill switch before the screen had booted up. It said something about throttle position. I turned the key off and back on and gave it time to boot up and the warning was gone. There are no faults logged in the system.

The bike is great for me and I absolutely love riding it. It looks like I made the right choice. By the way I  placed an order for the Experia just after the order board opened but canceled it in late February due to production delays. Still waiting an electric motorcycle I decided to give the Zero a try. So far so good.

[princec]

To be fair the Zero firmware has been riddled with bugs for the last 2 years and it only seems to be working ok finally now. Mostly. I have had the situation quite recently on my SR/F at home where it wouldn't release the charging cable when I turned the bike on. I turned it on and off a few times and eventually sorted itself out but it was still a bit of a brow-furrowing moment trying to just on the thing to go to work.

Cas

[Commodore]

Don,

Thanks for your great writeup on both models.

Very disconcerting about the bugs, especially the latest one!

I now have about 1100 miles on my Experia, and the only "bugs"  have been at times needing to press the start button twice to initialize (and this only happens infrequently), and once on my first ride home, holding the "back" button in the two seconds and having the storage compartment pop open.  (It now no longer does that, not until I am stopped with the kickstand down, when I then gain access to my garage door opener.)  I only infrequently get the "key out of range" message while riding.

I chose the Experia because of the range, having been in the not-too-distant past a three-tank-a-day rider.  That, and the bags, and the near-equivalent price to a g/s Adventure with bags.  What I was wiling to accept was that I was getting a hand-made and IMHO very good looking machine, that was in its first year of production - "bleeding edge" if you will.  The Zero did not meet my requirements, although I have enjoyed riding a friend of mine's.

I recently went on a ride that took me 180 miles from home, and I arrived with 25 miles range left.  120v charge at my destination, and 240v charge when I got back home.  No need to charge mid-trip, although I have used both CCS and AC charging (Chargepoint) without a problem so far.  Being an electrical imbecile, I was not happy to read on the forum that the range figure is nearly uselses - but I am learning quickly so I don't strand myself.

The final reason I chose the Experia is that I wanted to ride and not maintain, having restored and customized a number of motorcycles.  I hope that does not change!

[DonTom]

To be fair the Zero firmware has been riddled with bugs for the last 2 years and it only seems to be working ok finally now. Mostly. I have had the situation quite recently on my SR/F at home where it wouldn't release the charging cable when I turned the bike on. I turned it on and off a few times and eventually sorted itself out but it was still a bit of a brow-furrowing moment trying to just on the thing to go to work.

Cas

Yes, I am aware of the bugs on Zero's other slightly older models, Magic Charging and a few other things. But so far, the DSR/X has been bug free and a fun bike to ride.


I also realize that first year model bikes usually have many issues. So I assume Energica will fix these bugs over the years, but I am comparing the two models as they are today.


IIRC, with the DSR/x, the charge cable can be released at any time. Just press the release button on the charge plug and charging stops. Since there is no super high current, high voltage DC charging, they do not have to make so sure the cable is locked in.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

Being an electrical imbecile, I was not happy to read on the forum that the range figure is nearly uselses - but I am learning quickly so I don't strand myself.

Yeah, notice how my Experia says it has 253 miles left. 30 minutes later, when I was going down Hwy 50 to Carson City, it said I had 330 miles range left. A few minutes and miles later (less than ten miles later) on I-580 towards Reno it said less than 100 miles left. Totally useless. But this, AFAIK, is the same on all motorcycles that show range left. Even the ICE bikes. For some reason they base these estimates on the current conditions over a few miles. This is an especially stupid way to do it for this area of high winds and endless hills. IMO, an average based on SOC would be much better and be a lot closer to being accurate.


Or the way my Chevy Bolt does it, have three ranges shown for expected average, min and max range. I am not sure how Tesla does it, but my range is normally 3 times my SOC%, but not always. But somehow it is close to acceptable, unlike any motorcycles I have seen as they are all totally useless range estimates. Expect anything except for what it shows.


However, I assume they would be accurate on a perfectly level road with no wind. How often is that? Around here, never.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Oilcan]

I have found that my DSR/X is getting approximately the range Zero is advertising on the website. I have not really paid a lot of attention to the charging speed because most times I just plug it in when I get home and walk away. Today after a ride I thought I would check the charging speed against the advertised speed on the website. It says it should change from 0% to 95% in 2.0 hours with the standard 6.6 kw charger. I didn’t run it down to 0% but after my 106 mile ride I was down to 9%.

It was about 90 degrees when I started the charging and it was charging at 6.3 kw. My voltage here is about 230 and is probably why it wasn’t at the advertised 6.6 kw.
At the one hour mark the bike was at 55% and the charging rate was down to 4.9 kw.
At the one and a half hour mark the bike was at 73% and holding steady at the 4.9 kw rate.
At an hour and fifty five minutes it was at 90% and charging at 4.8 kw.
At the two hour mark it was at 92% and still charging at 4.8 kw.
It reached the 95% mark in two hours and six minutes. But it continued to change another five minutes as the cells balanced and the charging was tapering down until it shutdown at rate of 1.5 kw.
So all in 9% to 95 % in two hours and eleven minutes on a 90 degree day. I expect the quoted time on the website is at a cooler temperature.  I think the advertised specs are pretty close to real world.

[DonTom]

I have found that my DSR/X is getting approximately the range Zero is advertising on the website.

My only complaint with the Zero DSR/x is the lousy instructions for the centerstand installation and them not telling me the locks and reflectors would be shipped separately from the bags and trunk.


But I would really have to nitpick to find a problem with the DSR/x itself.


I just wish I could say the same for my Experia. I still think the Experia could be a great bike--after they fix the bugs in their firmware. And all of these bugs are intermittent, they only happen once in a while. That could make it more difficult to resolve. I hope Experia has an FW update in the works. It certainly needs it.


BTW, if I were Energica I would deal with the fob out of range message by having no message possible after the bike is first started. Just use the pin, if somehow fob is lost in route (very unlikely, IMO) but perhaps not brick the bike until entered six times incorrectly, instead of the current three times. I have used the pin often and it always worked for me on the very first try.


That's better than having a message we all know to ignore.


-Don-  Reno, NV