Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[TheRan]

So a used charger popped up on Ebay for really cheap and I bought it with the intention of having a spare for when my current one inevitably dies, not having to wait for a replacement to be ordered. However it got me thinking, why not use it in addition? It seems like it would be fairly easy, either use it like a Delta (from the photo it looks like they just have an Anderson connector on them) or make some spacers for the belly pan and squeeze it in there.

However what I don't know about is actually controlling the thing, because I know it's not just a dumb charger like the Delta and has some communication with the bike. I'm at least going to have to buy a connector for that so if anyone knows what it is that would be appreciated. Does the communication just tell the bike to close the contactor and enable charging, in which case if I'm using the default charger too it doesn't matter? Or does the bike also tell the charger to do its thing?

[MVetter]

Pretty sure the thing is entirely CAN enabled so this isn't going to work.

[TheRan]

I thought it might be a bit more complex than I was imagining. How about just splitting the signal between the two chargers? I don't know if it's something simple like the charger tells the bike to close the contactor and then the bike tells the charger to start charging (and vice versa at the end) or if there's like a constant communication between the two and the charger is adjusting to variables that wouldn't be identical between the two chargers (for example varying power based on temperature readings).

[TheRan]

The charger arrived today, plugged it into the mains and as expected no output. Well I got a few mV out so I'm guessing that means it's not dead but I will need to test it properly. It turns out it doesn't use the same SB75 connector as the accessory charging port but rather a smaller SBS50 so I've ordered a Y splitter for that (actually accidentally ordered an SB50 one, but I've ordered some SBS50 housings too so that's an easy swap).

I've also ordered a connector for the control port. From reading the unofficial manual the pre-2015 chargers just took 5V on a couple pins to enable them so that would have been nice and easy but these newer ones have like 7 wires for CAN control. My plan is to split the signal to both chargers and see if that works. At first I'll try it with the second charger disconnected and monitor the output. My hope is that the CAN signal is just simply telling it when to turn on and off (same as the older chargers) and not actually controlling the output.

[MVetter]

It's an SBS50BRN. You can find the connector on the right side of the battery case wedged tightly on the right edge held together with zip ties. Honestly it's such a snug fit that in order to access the damn thing I usually de-pin it.

Good luck with the MXJ connector

[Specter]

splitting communications signals to multiple devices is playing with fire.  Most communications protocols, this will probably almost immediately cause a collision / parity error at the very least,as both devices will be trying to 'talk' at the same time.  There's loading the circuit, and if they are actively sending signals to control power flow, and if both of them are not exactly calibrated perfectly to be synched to each other, the first time one steps up a tad and the other does not, their could be issues.

Generally if you are communicating to devices, each must have it's OWN separate address.  Splitting the line thinking you can just for lack of a better term. YELL at all of them at the same time, may not work well.

Aaron

[TheRan]

Yeah I was reading a thread about removing the charger and they also said about pulling the pins. I'll have to learn how to do that anyway to swap the housings over.

The connector for the control does look like a bit of a fiddly bugger, I did manage to wire up a custom splitter with the 12V accessory connectors so I'm hoping it's not much more difficult than that. Unfortunately I couldn't find a female connector that wasn't PCB mount so I can't make up a splitter cable for that too. I'll start off by using some of those individual jumper cables that can slip over the pins and then if that works I'll splice into the wiring harness and add the second connector.

What do you think my chances are that this works and the CAN signal is just a simple on/off control? On one hand I don't see why Zero would change the control method compared to the older chargers, but on the other hand there may be a reason why they switched to CAN. Maybe it's just because that's what the chargers used, because I know the manufacturer has changed over time.

[TheRan]

So it turns out the colour of Anderson connectors is relevant, they have different mechanical keyings. Would have been nice for the product description to mention this and the connectors only say SBS50 on them with no other differentiating text (sucks for the colour blind I guess). Not a big deal but it's annoying paying more for postage from Digikey than the cost of the housings.

I did however have some success testing the second charger, plugged in the control connector from the bike (a bit of a pain, not much slack there) and it puts out a steady 117V volts. This gives me some hope as I would assume if it was a more complex control method the bike would see that no power is going into the battery and shut off the charger.

[MVetter]

So it turns out the colour of Anderson connectors is relevant, they have different mechanical keyings.

Hey man I did say SBS50BRN

[TheRan]

Did some experimenting today and it's showing signs of success. Made up a splitter cable for the canbus control and it seems to work, both chargers activate. The bike was already at 100% so the default charger wasn't actually charging but the contactor closed and the dash turned on like usual, and the secondary charger was putting out 117V.

I did wonder what would happen seeing as the battery was fully charged, if the bike would send a signal and it would drop to a lower voltage or something, but I guess it's just telling the charger to turn on and then it does its own thing once it's connected to the battery. For example if it was at a lower state of charge then the connected charger would be at a lower voltage and the disconnected one would still be at 117V. Unfortunately the Anderson connector is a right pain to get to and it was getting late otherwise I would have disconnected both chargers to see if they both act the same way.

Just waiting on the Anderson splitter now and then it's time to decide how I want to go about splitting the canbus connection in a more permanent way. I was thinking of just getting some inline splice connectors but space might be tight for 8 of those. Ideally I'd pull the terminals out of the connector going to the first charger and pigtail some extra wires off that.

[TheRan]

Was looking through the service manual to see if it listed what bolt size is used to secure the charger, so I could grab some longer ones from work. It didn't say but I did find a pinout for the canbus connector. Interestingly it still has the three wires (charger attached, enabled, and ground) that the pre-2015 chargers used in addition to the can. I'm curious if using just these will still trigger the charger so I'll have to test that. Also one of the wires is for if a Chademo charger is attached, no idea why that's still there but I assume I can eliminate that one at least.

[TheRan]

Another update for any that are interested. I'll start off by saying I now hate Anderson connectors. They're a neat idea and I'm sure they work well but having 20 variations that do the same thing is ridiculous. I managed to find some more brown connectors at work and I was almost mad that I had wasted 20 quid on some when I could get some for free, turns out there are actually two shades of brown with different keyings. Also the splitter cable that I bought with SB50 connectors, turns out they use shorter contacts than the SBS50 connectors so I've also had to buy the longer contacts and a crimping tool. So I've ended up needlessly spending around £110, if I could have just found a SBS50-BRN splitter cable.

However, I've been doing some more testing and we have success. First thing I needed to figure out was what is actually required to get the second charging running, and it turns out the CAN control is optional. Hook up the charger attached, enable, and ground pins and plug the charger into the mains and it starts putting out power. That's really good news because not only does it make splitting the signal between the two chargers easy with 3 extra wires instead of 7/8 it also means there's no chance of any mixed signals.

The next thing to do was see if all of this actually worked in practice. I haven't made up the final splitter cable yet but I cobbled one together with some contacts I already had on some wires and some Wagos. I didn't leave it running for very long as they were only rated for about 10A, but as shown in the app it charged at a peak of about 2990W (it was jumping around a bit so hard to screenshot) and when I cut power to one of the chargers it dropped to an expected 1450w.

So, the next steps are to assemble this beefier splitter cable, get some longer bolts and spacers to be able to mount the second charger below the stock one, and then decide on how I'm going to go about adding in the second control connector.

[DerKrawallkeks]

Hey TheRan,

very interesting work you've been doing here! I am interested in more info on how the communication works and what is actually needed.
Which way do you think the communication goes on the charger attached and enable pins?
Which one do you think makes the bike close the contactor?

Have you tried charging the bike fully without the CAN to the second charger? (I am wondering what voltage it will charge to)

Would be great if you could provide some more info on my questions, thanks!:)

[TheRan]

I did try charging with just the secondary charger, I accidentally forgot to hook up the control connection on the primary one. It all worked fine, the contactor closed and it started charging at a little under 1500w, however I think I had the bike keyed on at the time. I'll try it again once I've got the permanent connection done to see if it will close the contactor with the bike keyed off. My guess is that it won't and that it's functioning the same as the Delta charger.

[TheRan]

Been meaning to make an update on this. Everything is done to a functional point now and I've done two charges to 100% using both chargers. Still a couple things to do like finding a way to put the skid plate back on and I would like to increase the cooling somehow. They do get a little hot and the upper one is now transferring heat to the lower one instead of the air, I'm not worried about a catastrophic failure as they have over temp protection and it's been fine so far but it would suck if one shuts off. For the skid plate I can get some bolts that are ~44mm longer, but then it's figuring out how to fill in the gap.

Mounting the second charger below the first went pretty much exactly as I planned. My initial thought was to just use longer bolts but I couldn't find any long enough and I thought it'd be nice to be able to secure the upper one completely before lifting the bottom one up. So, I bought some long threaded rod and held the chargers in place with nuts instead, I have some spacers coming that will cover the bare rod. Because the chargers originally mount by slots there was the risk of the lower one coming loose should the rods flex outwards so I drilled some new mounting holes to keep them captive, as well as allow me to slide it to the rear a bit which will allow better fitment with the skid plate. Also originally the charger mounts with only 6 bolts despite there being 8 threaded holes and the two extras lining up with slots on the charger, so I used all 8.

Doing the control connection was a bit of a pain. Even though there's only 3 splices needed it was tight fitting them in, the contacts were hard to crimpy with my crappy crimper, and the connector didn't come with any blanking plugs so I sealed it all up with hot glue instead. Not the prettiest job but it's working.

For the charger output connection it turns out I'm a massive idiot who wasted a ton of money. When I discovered I couldn't plug straight into the accessory charging port I forgot all about it and was set on splitting the OBC connection into two. However the simple solution was to just pull the pins from the accessory connection and put them into an SBS-50 housing, easier, neater, and only requires spending like a fiver on a new housing.

I was just going to leave the input connecter dangling and fish it out when needed but I managed to find a spot to hard mount it and I'm quite pleased with how it came out.