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Author Topic: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration  (Read 1725 times)

DonTom

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2023, 10:07:24 PM »

" cannot be done after reaching 100% on a public DC Rapid Charger. "

Of course not. The CCS charger will shut off right at 100% SOC. But ny screen says it is balancing well before 100% even during a CCS charge. At least on my 2020 SS9-.   I cannot remember if my Experia does the same. I will check during my next CCS charge with it. 

-Don-  Reno, NV


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Pard

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2023, 10:16:02 PM »

...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 10:46:59 PM by Pard »
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Pard

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2023, 07:47:40 PM »

From the Manual
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DonTom

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2023, 03:19:14 AM »

From the Manual
My 2020 SS9- manual:



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DonTom

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2023, 03:33:23 AM »

But my Experia manual does say it only balances in the AC mode (on page 134), unlike my SS9- that says it is balancing right on the screen during a DC fast charge.


I wonder why the difference.


The battery is different, but I do not understand why one can balance in during a fast charge and the other cannot.


-Don-  Auburn, CA
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Pard

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2023, 05:17:54 AM »

But my Experia manual does say it only balances in the AC mode (on page 134), unlike my SS9- that says it is balancing right on the screen during a DC fast charge.


I wonder why the difference.


The battery is different, but I do not understand why one can balance in during a fast charge and the other cannot.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

The BMS is likely the same in all the bikes, despite the screen indication.  Try and get confirmation from Energica about this.  I will do the same.
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Specter

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2023, 10:28:45 PM »

Well since we are hopefully getting Energica involved.
WHY isn't the balancing a passive thing, ie the Wheatstone bridge type thingy that is very efficient and compact to slide pretty much anywhere, especially as it only needs to slide a few amps max?  If it is, then the balancing takes place pretty much all the time then no?

How is the Energica's pack laid out (if you are allowed to say)  is it 6 x 48 volt modules?  if so then this setup would be very easy with COTS parts that are very cost effective.

Just curious is all.

Aaron
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PWM

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2023, 11:55:03 AM »


WHY isn't the balancing a passive thing.

How is the Energica's pack laid out (if you are allowed to say)  is it 6 x 48 volt modules?

Just curious is all.

Aaron

Ballancing is passive, its just a shunt load like a resistor that gets switched across a cell group so cells will not overcharge while the rest top up, that's why it happens at the end of charge, the balance system is likely hardware driven not computer controlled given the characteristics, certainly initiated by VCU...

Pack configuration is somewhat easy to figure out...230VDC @ 21500kWhrs
3.7V per cell so 230/3.7 = 60cells to a module x2 = 180 cells * 30Ahr = 5400kWhr per module so two in parallel with another (2) in parallel is the pack configuration.  The BMS manages 180 cells because of the parallel modules.  Cells charge to 4.2V but that's not the value used to compute capacity.  I'm thinking the cells are 32Amp/hr each - math is rough but close enough.

There's a patent drawing on the 13.5K Energica pack, it's public info patent covers the cooling method which is effetive and worthy to look at to get a better iunderstanding of the 21.5kW pack configuration and it's a good reference for general construction...when it's found it will be posted on this thread.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2023, 11:59:12 AM by PWM »
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PWM

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2023, 09:20:29 PM »

https://patents.justia.com/patent/9941556

A pdf copy has illustrations not sure where / how to link to it's on a different computer.
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PWM

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2023, 09:20:06 AM »


Pack configuration is somewhat easy to figure out...230VDC @ 21500kWhrs
3.7V per cell so 230/3.7 = 60cells to a module x2 = 180 cells * 30Ahr = 5400kWhr per module so two in parallel with another (2) in parallel is the pack configuration.  The BMS manages 180 cells because of the parallel modules.  Cells charge to 4.2V but that's not the value used to compute capacity.  I'm thinking the cells are 32Amp/hr each - math is rough but close enough.
.

Sorry for the baffle with bullshit session blaming it on groggy state of mind to realize pack voltage is all wrong but who's really paying attention...

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XbLjvPh/0/14cee10e/M/i-XbLjvPh-M.jpg




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Pard

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2023, 05:15:34 PM »

But my Experia manual does say it only balances in the AC mode (on page 134), unlike my SS9- that says it is balancing right on the screen during a DC fast charge.


I wonder why the difference.


The battery is different, but I do not understand why one can balance in during a fast charge and the other cannot.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

@Demoni explained how the balancing process works in this thread:

https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=12781.0

"The balancing process starts when the first cell chain reaches the preset max voltage. What % SOC the battery will start balancing depend on the delta between the highest and lowest cell voltages. The bike will show a SOC of 100% once the cell voltage delta is within the set range."

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DonTom

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2023, 02:45:04 AM »

@Demoni explained how the balancing process works in this thread:

https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=12781.0

"The balancing process starts when the first cell chain reaches the preset max voltage. What % SOC the battery will start balancing depend on the delta between the highest and lowest cell voltages. The bike will show a SOC of 100% once the cell voltage delta is within the set range."
Thanks, but I already read that message.


-Don-  Reno, NV
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Demoni

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2023, 10:58:27 AM »

I confirm you can balance (reaching 100% SOC) charge an Energica battery using CCS. We have a 6kW DC unit in the shop that I often use to charge our bikes.
However DC chargers you will encounter in the wild have circuits optimized to provide high current output and may not be able step down their charge rates for cell balancing. Public stations will often time out when a vehicle requests 0A.
Not to mention the very nature of DC charging is to add energy to your vehicle fast and continue your trip, leaving a bike plugged in for many hours is counter intuitive.


I am unfamiliar with the protocols used for Chademo it is possible that standard does not allow for balancing. This could explain the blanket statement in the manual.
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Specter

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2023, 05:56:01 PM »

My charger  will go down to 1 amp and will balance the battery.  What I have found a few times though is, it happens fast, so am kind of curious how much real balancing has really happened, and  another quirk seems to be it will end the charge saying 100 percent charged then later that day, you turn the bike on and it's at like 98 or 99 percent.  Makes me think the balancing may have kept on going after the charger turned off at 100 percent, (which it may have assumed as soon as cell voltage hit the peak, then dropped again as the cells shuffled current 'tween each other to balance'),  when you look again later, the slightly reduced voltage, because the cells now are balanced, makes it read 99 percent.

Maybe it's a heat thing too, charging cells are warmer, and hotter cells will typically have higher voltage readings, and when they cool back down, the voltage sags a bit, which of course could trigger a less than 100 percent reading as well.

This also may be indicative that an AC balance is much preferred over DC because it's slow and easy and the batteries are more at room temp and their final voltages will be more realistic to an honest charge state and not biased because of the charging heat added to the pack.

Aaron
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Pard

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Re: Ribelle SOC Re-Calibration
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2023, 07:30:25 PM »

I confirm you can balance (reaching 100% SOC) charge an Energica battery using CCS. We have a 6kW DC unit in the shop that I often use to charge our bikes.
However DC chargers you will encounter in the wild have circuits optimized to provide high current output and may not be able step down their charge rates for cell balancing. Public stations will often time out when a vehicle requests 0A.
Not to mention the very nature of DC charging is to add energy to your vehicle fast and continue your trip, leaving a bike plugged in for many hours is counter intuitive.


I am unfamiliar with the protocols used for Chademo it is possible that standard does not allow for balancing. This could explain the blanket statement in the manual.

Very helpful information.  Thank you.  The manual had me thinking otherwise.
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