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Author Topic: Front brake pulsating / off-on  (Read 3344 times)

jotjotde

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2024, 12:49:15 PM »

In my view, kilometer-numbers make absolutely no sense.

My understanding is, the advice is to avoid emergency breakings situations for some time as the surfaces of pads and rotors could be covered with stuff from the production etc. and the surfaces might be still a bit rough, so there might be not full braking capacity available. That should be gone after a two dozen brakings from a decent speed.

Actually, several websites recommend doing 20 breakings from 50 km/h to standstill to allow everything to settle. Sounds reasonable to me. 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2024, 12:55:36 PM by jotjotde »
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Specter

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2024, 08:24:56 PM »

Id say the advice is to try to avoid emergency braking events always, if you can.  That shit is never fun!
There should not be THAT much crap on your pads when you get them, they should be pretty good to go, but in general yes, test them a few times, if not to break them in, but to be sure everything is put back together correctly and working correctly.  Any loss of braking would only be a few percent, it would not be like the difference between front and rear braking in efficiency.

Speaking of that, had a harley clown tell me the other day that using front brakes is only for idiots, that you are just guaranteed to wreck if you use your front brakes.  This guy had most his teeth missing, and a scar on his face from a past wreck, so I decided not to try to educate him, it didn't seem worth the effort :)

That is one thing that kind of surprises me, you try to explain ABS and newer tech to people and they act like you are making stuff up. (even though anti lock brakes are not exactly new tech)  Yah maybe back in the 80s you could lock your front tire up and flip your bike (again if you are an idiot) but modern bikes, you'd really have to TRY to do that or a malfunction or something drastic like disabling it.

As for your Energica, do some regular stops, if they are working well, do a few heavier handed stops,  Id say start slow in case there Is a problem, it's not manifesting at 60 mph, then brake from regular speeds you drive down to a full stop.  That's the way brakes work, so  break them in the way they work. One of the things you will be checking to see if they are working correctly is that they release smoothly without sticking from a full stop.  Can't check that if you don't stop now can you?  ;D

The thinking on the don't come to a full stop is, if you are doing an emergency stop on brand new pads (just don't unless you ARE in an emergency) and there is some shit on them, the heat you build up during that hard stop, which will be a lot, and then you stop and squash that pad, with the superheated shit on it, down on your disc.  The stuff burns to, melts to and fuses / glues your brake pad to the rotor, or leaves a crappy spot on it from the burnt stuff glazing itself onto it and now you DO have a problem to fix.  Very hard stops are also bad on your brake fluid too.  Ive seen race bikes boil off their brakes a few times, it pops and smoke comes out.

Braking will smooth the pad out a bit as everything wears in and then you will have your best braking available.   If your rotor is grooved or has other linear mechanical defects to it's surface then it may take a few WEEKS to fully wear your pad enough so that it does now fit down into that groove, but that is in extreme instances, if your rotor is warped, grooved, you should have had it machined / replaced to begin with when putting the new pads on.

When testing / breaking in your brakes.  Of course look for proper operation.  Do they apply smoothly?  Is there any jerking, pulling, pulsing?  Is there any grinding, squalling, squealing from them, do they release properly and all the way?  Is all the air out of the system, in case you had to mess with the fluid too or opened up that circuit. Looking at the rotor you can also see if there are any uneven spots or any spots where it looks like it rubbed too hard or something touched, was grinding etc.  It should in all honestly go pretty easy for you.  There are a few things to look at, of course, but it's not very difficult to learn how or to do.

Good luck and let us know how it goes for you!
aaron
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most

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2024, 10:28:14 PM »

Thanks for your tips and advises. Just to avoid misunderstanding – I’m not looking into tips how to break in.
I was checking to see if anyone ever received an OFFICIAL feedback from Energica.

The reason for that being my dealer always got rejected my by Energica when he was opening a warranty claim. They said (i) it was broken in incorrectly and (ii) it is anyway “normal wear”. But they nether provided a method that seems appropriate from their point of view.
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Specter

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2024, 05:09:04 AM »

I can not comment on your specific instance but, it should have been Broken In, when they sold it to you, and the bike had it's 10 miles or so on it.  If not and the dealer did not tell you how to do so, that liability would be on THEM for the new brakes / warranty claim if it's genuinely not listed in your manual.

Energica may have a case to say no, but then it should fall directly on the dealer if they did something wrong, and still YOU the customer should not have to pay for the DEALERS mess up.  Sadly though dealers are notorious for trying to pass the buck for their Fkups rather than say oops, we goofed, sorry, let us fix that.

If this was damage that was done by a job you did, and you did NOT have any previous instruction how to do it, then sadly yah, they DO have a valid point, and will fall back on, the onus was on YOU to make sure it was done correctly,  ie read between the lines, you should have taken it to a dealer.. type thing.

If you are looking for a manual how to do the brakes right, which it sounds like you are, have you called them at their office and asked them to instruct you, or send you something, perhaps in the e mail?  That might be the best route to get genuine advice,  directly from them, and not us know it alls on bulletin boards :D

Aaron
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Motoproponent

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2024, 05:12:29 AM »

My front brakes started pulsing about 5 weeks ago. I'm going to try to clean the buttons to see if that fixes/helps. Then new brake pads.

I had a KTM 990 with very squeaky rear brakes. It ended up being a "known issue" among owners and the fix was new brake pads. Owners posting problems, and solutions that worked on forums.

There's more then 200 Experia owners out there. If we all are working on a problem, the solution will be known soon enough.
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Specter

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2024, 05:18:16 AM »

But what is causing the pads to go  bad?  Overheating, crap on them,  poor design?  yes replacing the pads might fix it, for the time being but what's taking out the pads so fast?

Aaron
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most

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2024, 12:39:13 PM »

If you are looking for a manual how to do the brakes right, which it sounds like you are, have you called them at their office and asked them to instruct you, or send you something, perhaps in the e mail?
Of cause - requested via my dealer the week before Xmas and waiting for some official feedback. And of cause, my dealer is my interface for all warranty claims and I don‘t care what feedback they might get from Modena. He also supports my requests and took care of my Ribelle‘s 2nd brake disk set without Energica.

There's more then 200 Experia owners out there. If we all are working on a problem, the solution will be known soon enough.
VINs up to 40 or 45 are early demonstraters and the highest VIN mentioned in the FaceBook owners group recently was 220, so sounds like 200 might be a valid number. Plus the unknown amount delivered to French and Italian Police - my guess is a few dozen with more to come. There‘s a large number of owners who don‘t care about forums or FB. Furthermore, the average motorcycle mileage in Germany is only 2,200km per year, so I’m afraid those few actively reading and riding owners might not bring the desired answer ‘soon enough‘  :(
But since at least me I have noticed the same issue also on the other Energica models (no surprise as apparently identical rims/discs/calipers/pads), the rider base might be much wider than 200.

But what is causing the pads to go  bad?  Overheating, crap on them,  poor design?
That‘s what nobody knows for sure. Also we don‘t know if it is really the pads alone - however a few have some theories like cleaning the floaters or different pad brand like EBC. I have not yet heard or read about a final fix - all were mitigations at best.
In my case, the discs have been replaced now 3x in my Energica life and every time the pads were re-used. In all three cases the wobble was gone for another 5.000km or so. So I tend to say the problem is with the discs, not the pads. It may very well be that the pads initiate the issue which can only be noted with the discs - but that‘s speculation.


BR Matthias
« Last Edit: January 04, 2024, 12:57:55 PM by most »
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SBK74

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2024, 02:40:22 PM »

When I changed rotors, I also changed OEM pads to Brembo 07BB37SR. Pulsating appeared again after running in; so not pads related I would say. Two BMW GS riders who tried the demo Experia of my dealer during our trip in September mentioned brake vibrations in the Experia s well.
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jotjotde

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2024, 12:24:46 PM »

@most: You write, your discs were replaced already 3 times. I am interested to hear with what kind of discs.

As far as I know there are two possibilities: A) the original discs which can be purchased from Energica only & B) the Brembo 78B408B2 which are listed for the SS9.
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most

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2024, 01:27:35 PM »

All replaced under warranty, thus originals. Brembo PN unknown to me; PN of Energica applies.
Furthermore: The Oro is listed as replacement for SS9/Ribelle/Ego but not for my current Experia. I'm aware that they will fit perfectly as SS9/Ribelle/Ego/ExPee all share the same rims/brake discs/calipers.

When the next replacement is due which by experience will be around summer time 2024 AND Energica will not replace under warranty then I will check options with my dealer to change to Oro.

The OEM version that Brembo sells to Energica cannot be purchased from any supplier as aftermarket parts - they are OEM exclusive and can only be purchased from Energica. Aftermarket (OEM-replacement) products are for example the Oro that you mentioned, but also PistaBassa and Black11. Those can be bought even from eBay.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2024, 11:15:18 PM by most »
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PWM

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2024, 01:17:40 AM »

To further diagnose, disable the front ABS modulator by removing the 25A fuse (do this w/ bike turned off), not sure how VCU will respond, it should throw a fault code when bike starts, but still allow bike to GO.  This test will isolate the ABS as potential cause for the brake pulsing.
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smithy

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2024, 02:31:19 AM »

To further diagnose, disable the front ABS modulator by removing the 25A fuse (do this w/ bike turned off), not sure how VCU will respond, it should throw a fault code when bike starts, but still allow bike to GO.  This test will isolate the ABS as potential cause for the brake pulsing.

Can you not just "disable" the ABS system..?? Most bikes these days have the option in their on-board menus.

Smithy.
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PWM

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2024, 03:33:15 AM »


Can you not just "disable" the ABS system..?? Most bikes these days have the option in their on-board menus.

Smithy.

Yes, that's a better way - good suggestion!

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most

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2024, 12:06:53 PM »

This test will isolate the ABS as potential cause for the brake pulsing.
The idea is not too bad, however at least in my case I have measured lateral slag before I got new rotors. Now, with the new rotors just broken in, I have no indication of any wobble but anyway measured. No surprise: Below 0.05mm - and those 0.05 might be caused by the measurement set up being not stiff enough.

Can you not just "disable" the ABS system..?? Most bikes these days have the option in their on-board menus.
ABS can be disabled on the older platform (Ego/Eva/Ribelle/SS9) via menu. This option is not available on my Experia - ABS is always on, there‘s no menu parameter directly connected with ABS. See attached picture; BRAKE means engine braking, so recuperation. It is not connected to the ABS modulator.
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EVriderDK

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Re: Front brake pulsating / off-on
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2024, 03:48:01 PM »

I have the same issue. No warping or uneven thickness. Seems like some part of the disc is just more smooth for some reason. I will try grinding it before the summer and then du er bed-in process and then remember to disable the regen once in a while to use the brakes more.
Hope it will help.
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