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[ms_smart]

I have seen data between 93 and 112. Currently it says 104. This is more than 20% delta.

It should never be anything other than 114.

I would like to disagree. Please also look at https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10424.0 I have seen in August 2020 a value of 109 where remmie got 106 and Hans2183 got 112. This is by no means constant 114. Since I log data on a regular base I know for soure that at least my data for pack_capacity_ah is changing over time (see my chart reflecting the last 3 years)

[MVetter]

Yep it's definitely inconsistent. Definitely should read 114, though.

[NervEasy]

Al my packs where around 85- 95…

(edit - with "my packs" I mean the 2020 14.4kwh. I had 3.)

[MVetter]

The 11.4 is 88Ah
The 12.5 is 100Ah
The 13 is 104Ah
The 14.4 is 114 Ah

[ms_smart]

Yep it's definitely inconsistent. Definitely should read 114, though.

I am not an expert, just observing things since I sit on a ton of data I pulled from OBD2. My observation is, that there is a correlation between reported pack_capacity_ah and SOC as well as reported range. The calculation of SOC and range is potentially incorrect since there is no reason for pack_capacity_ah to be so inconsistent. I am guessing, that Zero does some magic calculation to estimate the current value of pack_capacity_ah to put degradation into account. But this is just a guess. All I know for sure is, that the calculation sucks.

[MVetter]

Right, and I'm just letting you know the values of the cells as used by Zero and reported to the bike during a normal use-case. The 14.4 cells are 32Ah as set by Farasis; if you look at a 3.6 single brick it will have a sticker that says 32Ah. But Zero caps them to 28.5Ah. 4 modules = 28.5 x 4 = 114.

[Specter]

That's pretty common with many battery manu's / end users, they'll hold 10 percent of the total cap for themselves to make up for normal wear and tear / MINOR issues etc with the battery and it still makes it's warranty claim after it's 3 or 5 years.  The main thing that will save their ass (or not) is if they designed their BMS intelligently to protect the battery properly.  If you put the battery heater on the dmz side of the bms, you are setting yourself up for failure... as an example.  Hello Kilovault....   If your bms cuts out a battery at low voltage but STILL itself siphons from it, yah, have fun when your pack is at 0.3 volts.  Yes those manual resets are annoying but Do serve a purpose.

On range, unless you drive the same way every time, every day and the temperature is the same, bla bla, the bike does not have a crystal ball to give you a correct range.  Your range bounces around so much because it's trying to re calculate based on what you just did recently.  Will you continue that?  or just one more time, or the rest of the trip? 

For the range.  all the complaints,   do they tend to be

A.  It keeps reporting too short a range, it said I had 30 miles when I had 50 or
B.  It keeps reporting too much range, it said I had 50 and I died at 30?

personally Id rather have it report short knowing I had a bit of a buffer rather than being stuck somewhere and spending 100 bucks on a tow truck or jump shot.

Aaron

[princec]

On the Zeros, I think most of the range estimation complaints actually stem from the SOC calculation being buggered in the first place.

Cas

[Specter]

so explain buggered. 

Is it too high, is it too low.  it can ONLY be one of those.  but then again I can see the brits bitching because it was accurate 

Since the griper seems to have this 'knowledge' of 'something' about the range, that they'd make that comment, then they surely can commit to stating whether the bike is reporting too high or too low in it's reporting.

Aaron

[peterwarm]

Thanks for interesting discussion. I suspect the answer is in here somewhere. Thanks MVetter for the point that 0 Amps and 0 Watts may be the battery leveling up internally.

Anyway, dropped into dealer but could only have brief discussion as I was late on a long trip.  The Dealer (Davant, Torquay, UK) said that my symptoms were of a poor cell and that I should book the bike in soon to get in the queue for a replacement battery. He also said that this was common in the early 19/20 SRFs and that he had three waiting already.  His temporary fix: reset the BMS.
 
Message seems to be if you've got an early 14.4 battery, you might want to take it be checked out at the dealer if you've got strange SOC / charging issues.  But not before me please :-)

On the long trip I discovered that it would charge to 100%, but then as someone suggested, dropped to 97% as soon as start riding.  I also found the magic charging issue come back strongly, which was a real piss off as it was saying I had much less range than after leaving for 20 minutes.

Am I right in thinking the new batteries have far less issues like this?
pete

[MVetter]

I have not heard any rumblings of the magic charge issue with the new packs. Which is very good news.

[Specter]

If the battery bank does have a bad cell it will be very easy to push that one cell into a way high voltage state to get the overall 'row' or bank and overall battery pack voltage to be where it says 100 percent charged.  However this is just a surface charge on that battery, if it's charged past it's capacity while it may hold a tiny minute bit of energy which shows a higher voltage, the moment you start drawing off it, that extra will immediately go away and the cell will drop back to it's normal 'working range' voltage, which if it's bad, will be lower than the rest.  Also note that having a bad cell in a bank will also affect the charging of the batteries on either side of it as well and this problem will get cumulatively worse as the damage it can cause spreads.  So it shows 100 percent but after maybe a mile all the surface charges drop off and you are your real voltage, which it equates to 97 percent.

Undercharging is typically not an issue with Liths, as long as you don't go below their Minimum recommended voltage, unlike lead acids, nicd, nimh they do NOT have to be fully topped off each charge and / or kept there floating like lead does.  However with a damaged / bad cell, you can pretty much guarantee you taking at least that one, below where it is safe to do so.

Battery balance will often show as 0 a 0 v, as mentioned because it is often internal.  The current is flowing between each individual cell in the overall bank to balance them all out, NOT so much taking new energy in from the outside, so no real way to measure that easily.  In the case with the energica I believe they also do a lesser value, 'topping off' charge with new power being introduced at the same time the batteries are also moving current around between themselves to make everything happy.  When all is done, they are all at their peak voltage and ALL at the same voltage.

THIS seems to be an issue with these bikes.  Has anyone figured out what is causing this one group of cells to go bad in the overall pack on these?  Are they tapping these to provide 12 volts or something to the brains of the bike and that is taking it's toll over time or what exactly?  Seems odd that a batter would have the same, rather unique fault, across many units.

Aaron

[princec]

From Davant:

Sounds like what we call a battery crimp issue, its known and resolved by replacing the battery with a 2022+ BCB type, this will be 14.4kw unlocked to 15.6kw, and is a way better battery all around.

We will need your motorcycle back here for some data pull, this will include logs + other data stats, juts to prove to Zero that this motorcycle is now due a battery change.

I wouldn’t overall worry about the log pull via app, for some reason it pulls to a file format that we cannot open,

Please let me know when your free and I can pull the data for you, we will be pulling full logs so can take a few hours.

Once a case has been opened, batteries are take a few months to be issued.

Cas

[stevenh]

Wow, I wish I could get communication like that from my dealer!  Two weeks+ in the shop, and they are still running "diagnostics"?  Give me a break.

Edit, I spoke too soon.  Called today and got the good news that a battery has been approved/ordered.  Now the wait...

I'm in an especially bad mood since my Ioniq 5 (a little over a year old) is in the shop with a dead ICCU board and fuse (in the shop an hour away from my house, died last night).

Steve

From Davant:

Sounds like what we call a battery crimp issue, its known and resolved by replacing the battery with a 2022+ BCB type, this will be 14.4kw unlocked to 15.6kw, and is a way better battery all around.

We will need your motorcycle back here for some data pull, this will include logs + other data stats, juts to prove to Zero that this motorcycle is now due a battery change.

I wouldn’t overall worry about the log pull via app, for some reason it pulls to a file format that we cannot open,

Please let me know when your free and I can pull the data for you, we will be pulling full logs so can take a few hours.

Once a case has been opened, batteries are take a few months to be issued.

Cas

[princec]

Funnily enough my Ioniq 5 is going in tomorrow to be assessed by insurance monkeys after I lent it to my wife and she "parked" it.

Cas