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[Specter]

go ahead and push a 3.2 volt LiPo Cell down to 1.5 volts, and play games, and when the bike bursts in flames a week or so later, don't come back complaining gee what happened.

Aaron

[DonTom]

No that is not what I mean.

Then please explain what you do mean.


Here is what I am talking about.


Energicas often pop up a message to say to do the same. You must have seen it, I have, on my SS9 as well as on my Experia. It askes to run the battery to zero and then fully charge ASAP to calibrate the SOC.


So are you saying Zeros have no way to calibrate the SOC, unlike the others?

-Don- Reno, NV

[DonTom]

It does not do that for laptops. It does not do that for Energicas. I think you may be confusing Lithium batteries with NiCad from 30 years ago that are no longer used.

I somehow missed this message of yours. If you have a laptop owner's manual around, read about "battery SOC calibration". Every laptop manual I have read mentions how to calibrate the SOC by full discharge and instantly back to full.


And on the Energica, I have seen the message on my screen that says do the same to calibrate to SOC. Haven't you had the message?  But I ignore it, because it is too much hassle to ride until the battery is that low and then recharge right there.  I think (not sure) the message comes most often when charging too many times when above 50% SOC or so. Seems the message stays away after I get down in the red and do a full recharge. I don't think I really need to get down to the limp mode.


I have an idea when I need a recharge even if my SOC is not spot on.


However, I do not claim to know how the SOC works on a Zero. But it is something I would try if I expected I had a SOC issue.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[FlipOW]

In the last couple of months my bike, an early 2019 SR/F, has stopped charging at 97%, not going to 100% despite being left all night. It seems stuck at 97% with zero Amps or kW input, even after leaving it for an extra hour or so. 

I normally charge to 65% and boost it the day before if I think I've got a longer ride, so its not often I do 100% charge.

Anybody got some advice before I start the dreaded "contact the dealer"?

Thanks
pete

I experienced the same issue with my 2020 SR/S. But it seems I found the issue, which is the (3ph 22kW) Zappi wallbox. It charges with 6kW and suddenly around 95% SoC, the charge amps jumps up and down between 20 and 58A and then the entire process stops at 97%. But when I use the EVSE charger (from my Kia e-Niro) in a regular wall outlet, it steadily completes the charge to 100% and some balancing. So what I now do is: setting the charge goal at 80%, using the wallbox with the full 6kW. When I go for a longer drive, I use the EVSE charger to reach 100%.

[princec]

Lately my 2020 SR/F charges to 98% now. Or rather it says 100%, but the moment I unplug it, it shows 98%. Sigh. Latest firmware, dash, and brand new latest chargers in it now too. It's certainly a "quirky" bike. I don't really trust it as far as I could throw it but it is a damned nice ride.

Cas

[princec]

Regarding all this witchcraft about calibrating SOC etc... how exactly would anyone envisaging this actually working? How do you discharge to 0%, when the 0% you are looking at is calculated from a voltage lookup table (presumably with temperature) which you're trying to calibrate against? It makes no sense. The only way I can see any of this working is that Zero have produced a set of LUTs against pack voltage and temperature and they're in the BMS firmware. No amount of charging and discharging is going to change those tables.

Cas

[Specter]

Zero (0%) Percent - is the LOWEST voltage the manufacturer of the battery pack says you should EVER allow it to drop to.
For a,lets say 300 volt bike, like the Energica, this might be 280 volts, is the 0% State of Charge Point.

One Hundred (100%) Percent - is the HIGHEST voltage, and typically the recommended voltage that a manufacturer of a battery pack says you should EVER charge the batteries to.  For the same 300 volt bike, this might be around 330 volts, is the 100 % state of charge.

Anything you do that pushes the actual voltage above or below these two points, (280 - 330 volts), is out of tolerance and very likely DAMAGING your batteries.

LiPo's  (Lithium Polymer Batteries, which is what most the manufacturers use due to the energy density.  Some may call them Li Co, which is short for Cobalt) do NOT like being pushed outside their voltage envelopes AT ALL, and can damage very easily when you do so!

If you are charging and it's showing 100 percent, and when you remove the charge, it very quickly drops to 97 or 98 percent.  Armchair troubleshooting, that right there tells me that you have an aging / failing battery pack, or a pack with a damaged cell, or arm that got way out of whack on balancing.  The charger is 'pushing' it to 100 percent by impressing on the bad cell / bank until it's voltage rises high enough to meet the normal 100 percent, but that is just a surface charge.  The moment you take that external energy away, it quickly falls to it's real voltage, 97 percent charged.

Surface charge means there is very little energy density in it, you may show volts, (which is how it determines your SOC on charging for the most part), but no real (proper) chemical action is happening, so after a short rest, or a very brief use, that surface charge quickly dissipates, and the REAL, at rest voltage of the batteries appears.  (One that is proper and chemically stabilized) (think of a mug of beer and drinking the foam sitting on top of that mug, which would be the surface charge), THEN actually getting to the REAL beer.  Is there some beer in that foam? well, yah, but not much.  The foam will disappear very quickly, and the glass will drop from being 100 percent full to 97 percent full.

Aaron

[DonTom]

Regarding all this witchcraft about calibrating SOC etc... how exactly would anyone envisaging this actually working? How do you discharge to 0%, when the 0% you are looking at is calculated from a voltage lookup table (presumably with temperature) which you're trying to calibrate against? It makes no sense. The only way I can see any of this working is that Zero have produced a set of LUTs against pack voltage and temperature and they're in the BMS firmware. No amount of charging and discharging is going to change those tables.

Cas

Did you read my link about the "flags" for low and high SOC?  Obviously not.





-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

If you are charging and it's showing 100 percent, and when you remove the charge, it very quickly drops to 97 or 98 percent.  Armchair troubleshooting, that right there tells me that you have an aging / failing battery pack, or a pack with a damaged cell, or arm that got way out of whack on balancing.  The charger is 'pushing' it to 100 percent by impressing on the bad cell / bank until it's voltage rises high enough to meet the normal 100 percent, but that is just a surface charge.  The moment you take that external energy away, it quickly falls to it's real voltage, 97 percent charged.

I agree there, it does sound more like a normal charger with a battery that cannot accept a full charge because of a shorted cell or whatever.


Did I hear there is no way to check the cell balance on a SR/F?


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Specter]

DonTom,  I do not own one of these, nor have access to one currently so can not honestly comment on that.
BUT, if one has access to software that scans the battery pack, they might be able to, OR if they have access to the innards of the battery they absolutely can!

I do want to add though, if it IS a cell that has been pushed past it's normal charge range, by flexing / forcing it even more to go past that point, it is just causing more damage to it.  It is also slightly over charging the rest as well when you go to 'displayed' 100 percent SOC because the reality of it is, you are probably bringing the pack NOW to about 105 percent SOC, due to the others having to go slightly higher to compensate for it.  Let me also add, that by making it goto 100 percent, you are adding an artificial voltage to the battery grid, and when that outside force is taken away, the batteries will want to go back down to what they should be at, according to their chemistries, they will do this by discharging thru that low cell, which will create a lot of heat on that cell.  should that one cell decide to finally give up the ghost for good, short internally and vent, it's all bets off then what happens next, although we all pretty much know already.

In the average life of a battery, even one that is being cared for properly, the top and bottom 10 percent of the charge is causing probably close to 50 percent of the wear on that battery pack, that range is where most the wear / damage occurs on the battery.  This is why you see cycle charts that will show something like 3000 cycles at 100 percent dod, and maybe 5000 to0 8000 or more at only 80 dod (you are no longer using that top and bottom 10 percent).  This also helps in the event that you DO have one battery that is a little weak, you are no longer pushing it into it's high stress zone, you are keeping it within manu specs for that individual cell.

Aaron

[princec]

Regarding all this witchcraft about calibrating SOC etc... how exactly would anyone envisaging this actually working? How do you discharge to 0%, when the 0% you are looking at is calculated from a voltage lookup table (presumably with temperature) which you're trying to calibrate against? It makes no sense. The only way I can see any of this working is that Zero have produced a set of LUTs against pack voltage and temperature and they're in the BMS firmware. No amount of charging and discharging is going to change those tables.

Cas

Did you read my link about the "flags" for low and high SOC?  Obviously not.

I have a strong suspicion that article is full o' shit and that it works the way I described. You cannot calibrate something if you have no datum to measure it against. There are only two readings you can realistically measure from a battery - its voltage, and its temperature. Now tell me, how do you know you're at 0% or 100%?

Cas

[DonTom]

I have a strong suspicion that article is full o' shit and that it works the way I described. You cannot calibrate something if you have no datum to measure it against. There are only two readings you can realistically measure from a battery - its voltage, and its temperature. Now tell me, how do you know you're at 0% or 100%?

Cas

If it is all BS, it sure is well accepted BS. If you have a manual for a laptop, read it. Just about every one of them mentions how to calibrate to SOC. If it can be done on a laptop, why can't it be done on a EV battery?


And also tell Energica they are full of it, as such a message can pop up right on the screen telling you to fully discharge and charge to full to calibrate the SOC. At least in my 2020 SS9-.  IIRC, I have also seen the message one time on my new Experia already, but I could have been confused with my SS9-, as nor real sure which bike I was riding that time.


So IMO, the only question remaining is can the Zero SOC be calibrated the same way as other stuff.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Specter]

No. 

Nothing to see here...

Move along people !!

[peterwarm]

Just to be clear:

• When the bike only charges to 97%, the charger is still connected, just showing zero amps and kW.  So its not a drop when swicthing on to motor off somewhere.
• The bikes a premium with the added 6kW charger, but its only using one of the 3kW changers from a 13A/240V  (UK) domestic supply when this has happened.
  

Im taking it to the dealer tomorrow.
Thanks guys for discussion
pete

[MVetter]

It's entirely possible that it is trying to do its balance cycle. During this, you wouldn't necessarily see any constant power added as the BMS is potentially burning off excess charge from one or more 'high' cells in order to bring it in line with the rest of the pack.