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[Tony]

I currently have a SR/F 2020 Premium, which has some issues with magic charge, the repair shop seems to be doing random guesswork on it with the problem returning after a while all the time, so finally for this season I am considering just getting the 2023 premium model instead, and give the dealer my old one in exhange (plus some money to cover the gap of course).

I checked the Zero website, and they promote the 2023 SR/F as having better range and so on, but it is hard to really know what this means. Especially as mine is the very first SR/F and I am not aware of all the changes in the between models since then and the 2023 model. From my feeling not a lot changed though.

I would like to know what kind of range benefits going from 2020 to the 2023 model could entitle though, as this would be the number one reason to upgrade, any other benefits? Are we confident they fixed the magic charge thing for 2023?

[princec]

About 10% more range, and can charge 10% faster (so ... the same time as now but you go 10% further for your waiting). The dash is waaay better made. Allegedly it - and the rest of the bike - is waterproof now. Not much difference otherwise that I've seen other than paint schemes.

Cas

[Tony]

About 10% more range, and can charge 10% faster (so ... the same time as now but you go 10% further for your waiting). The dash is waaay better made. Allegedly it - and the rest of the bike - is waterproof now. Not much difference otherwise that I've seen other than paint schemes.

Cas

Thank you, I expected more than 10% actually as the 2020 model is listed with a Lithium Ion 12.5 kWh battery, while the 2023 model is listed with a 17.3 kWh battery?

Anyway, at the moment my 2020 is struggling to get 40% even of the normal range, even after multiple trips to the service shop, so since there is no reliable fix for it I seem to not have much of a choice if I want to have a functional bike for the coming season...

[TheRan]

12.5kW/h is the nominal capacity, which is 15.2kW/h for the current bikes. There's also an extra 10% you can buy in the Cypher store which when activated overcharges the bike.

[Tony]

12.5kW/h is the nominal capacity, which is 15.2kW/h for the current bikes. There's also an extra 10% you can buy in the Cypher store which when activated overcharges the bike.

Thanks for the explanation.

I checked the cypher store and it indicated you can unlock 20% more range in the 2023 model actually. But from my understanding you should only do this overcharge when you have long trips ahead, as it might wear down the battery if you use it all the time? It is a very attractive option for those long roadtrips though.

I also saw you can unlock more power. They indicate 1.6s for 0-100km/h when unlocked? OMG, that's just insane...

My major issue is that the charging interface seems to still be Type 2 for the 2023 model. Here in Norway this standard is phased out more and more, and can be hard to find. Also, it is quite slow compared to other standards. And schucco type charging is now illegal here, which seems to be the other option they offer.

[electrictwowheeler]

12.5kW/h is the nominal capacity, which is 15.2kW/h for the current bikes. There's also an extra 10% you can buy in the Cypher store which when activated overcharges the bike.

Thanks for the explanation.

I checked the cypher store and it indicated you can unlock 20% more range in the 2023 model actually. But from my understanding you should only do this overcharge when you have long trips ahead, as it might wear down the battery if you use it all the time? It is a very attractive option for those long roadtrips though.

I also saw you can unlock more power. They indicate 1.6s for 0-100km/h when unlocked? OMG, that's just insane...

My major issue is that the charging interface seems to still be Type 2 for the 2023 model. Here in Norway this standard is phased out more and more, and can be hard to find. Also, it is quite slow compared to other standards. And schucco type charging is now illegal here, which seems to be the other option they offer.

I think you are looking at the SR. The SR/F, SR/S, and DSRX all come with all cypher features included for 2023. The only options are the power tank and rapid charger ( charge tank).

I have a 2020 SR/S with 26,000 miles on it. The magic charging usually 10% or less. I think it is because I always charge to 100% before each ride. It's only my theory. If I am not riding the next day I will charge to 80% and top it off before I do the next ride. The range always shows around 100 miles depending on how I have been riding and the temperature. Do you routinely set a charge target and then ride without topping up to 100%? If so, could you try always charging to 100% before each ride and see if things improve? It might take many charge cycles to do this and the lower you run the battery down the better. Try running it down to 10% and letting it magic charge and run it down to 10% again and do that one more time and you will really be at 10%. Then charge to 100%. I don't think we can fix the magic charging, but we might be able to manage it. If you could try this it would prove or disprove my theory and if it worked it would help allot of Zero owners! What do you have to loose?

Thanks Garry

Maybe you should consider an Energica for the faster charging. I test rode an SS9 last week in LA and liked it but the dealer would only give me $10,000 trade in on my SRS. That means $13,000 plus my two year old Zero. Ouch! Here in the US there are level 2 chargers all over the place so the charging speed is not a big issue but faster is always better.

[Tony]

12.5kW/h is the nominal capacity, which is 15.2kW/h for the current bikes. There's also an extra 10% you can buy in the Cypher store which when activated overcharges the bike.

Thanks for the explanation.

I checked the cypher store and it indicated you can unlock 20% more range in the 2023 model actually. But from my understanding you should only do this overcharge when you have long trips ahead, as it might wear down the battery if you use it all the time? It is a very attractive option for those long roadtrips though.

I also saw you can unlock more power. They indicate 1.6s for 0-100km/h when unlocked? OMG, that's just insane...

My major issue is that the charging interface seems to still be Type 2 for the 2023 model. Here in Norway this standard is phased out more and more, and can be hard to find. Also, it is quite slow compared to other standards. And schucco type charging is now illegal here, which seems to be the other option they offer.

I think you are looking at the SR. The SR/F, SR/S, and DSRX all come with all cypher features included for 2023. The only options are the power tank and rapid charger ( charge tank).

I have a 2020 SR/S with 26,000 miles on it. The magic charging usually 10% or less. I think it is because I always charge to 100% before each ride. It's only my theory. If I am not riding the next day I will charge to 80% and top it off before I do the next ride. The range always shows around 100 miles depending on how I have been riding and the temperature. Do you routinely set a charge target and then ride without topping up to 100%? If so, could you try always charging to 100% before each ride and see if things improve? It might take many charge cycles to do this and the lower you run the battery down the better. Try running it down to 10% and letting it magic charge and run it down to 10% again and do that one more time and you will really be at 10%. Then charge to 100%. I don't think we can fix the magic charging, but we might be able to manage it. If you could try this it would prove or disprove my theory and if it worked it would help allot of Zero owners! What do you have to loose?

Thanks Garry

Maybe you should consider an Energica for the faster charging. I test rode an SS9 last week in LA and liked it but the dealer would only give me $10,000 trade in on my SRS. That means $13,000 plus my two year old Zero. Ouch! Here in the US there are level 2 chargers all over the place so the charging speed is not a big issue but faster is always better.

Oh, yes, you are right. The advertisement was a bit misleading. 10% extra is "included", then you can unlock 10% more range.

I have been looking at the Energica, and it does seem to have many nice features. The only dealer in my country is a plane ride away though, so it easily takes two days just to get a test drive. I'm a bit concerned it is heavy, and also it would be inconvenient to have it serviced if it has to go all the way back to the dealer.

I am quite happy with my SR/F though, except for the range problem. I am not even sure it qualifies as the magic charge problem, as it really cuts off at least 50% of the normal range. There is also an element of magic charging though.

Last time it happened everything was working fine, I ran the bike from full to empty as an experiment, and at 1% charge left I got about 220km out of it. Then after charging up again, it went straight back to giving me half that range. I dont know if it is a software problem or something else. It looks like it is the software that simply estimate the amount of charge left wrongly.

The service shop just installed the latest firmware and called it a day last time, it is still in the shop for winter storage, so I havent been able to check it. Maybe it is fixed, maybe not. I lost confidence after having to return there so many times with this, typically it surfaces after I have run the bike a while...

[Floki]

“It looks like it is the software that simply estimate the amount of charge left wrongly.”

I recall reading that this same software problem happened with some of the early electric cars. The solution that was discovered for some was to run the car until it shut down from low charge and then immediately recharge it to 100%. This would reset the range estimate that was causing the problem. Of course this is a hassle if you have to do it often and the manufacturer should correct the software. Who knows if this might also be a temporary solution for the affected Zeros?

[Tony]

“It looks like it is the software that simply estimate the amount of charge left wrongly.”

I recall reading that this same software problem happened with some of the early electric cars. The solution that was discovered for some was to run the car until it shut down from low charge and then immediately recharge it to 100%. This would reset the range estimate that was causing the problem. Of course this is a hassle if you have to do it often and the manufacturer should correct the software. Who knows if this might also be a temporary solution for the affected Zeros?

Thanks for the tip, interestingly enough the opposite happened in my case. It was fine, then I ran the bike until empty, and the problem occured. It looks like it is related to the same thing anyway.

I am just worried that this kind of strange voodoo will leave me stranded on a mountain somewhere. Maybe time to go back to petrol again, although I prefer electric...

[electrictwowheeler]

This does sound like it might be a different issue than magic charging. When the bike went back to only giving half the range did you shut off the bike and wait awhile to see if the SOC came back up? That would be magic charging. If you just plugged it in immediately after the ride it will just charge back up to 100% but in half the time it should take. Now I remember your post about driving 220 km but I think you did it over a period of a week and only short trips. You will get good range doing that even with severe magic charging because every time you stop the SOC will correct itself. It's usually more pronounced on longer continuous rides. If you ride on a highway for say 70 km without stopping and then shut the bike off and wait an hour is the SOC higher when you turn it back on? How much does it increase? That would be magic charging.

Yes, The Energicas are heavier and taller and really more bike than I need but they are nice machines. I like my SR/S also except for the wonky SOC calculation but mine is pretty minor.

[Richard230]

My thought is why do the new Zero models have any "magic charging" at all? I have owned three legacy Zeros over the past 11 years and none have ever displayed that issue. So if Zero didn't have that problem in the past, why now?

[princec]

Firmware programmers not clever enough. Hardware people changing things without telling firmware programmers. That sort of thing. BTDTGTTS. I used to have to manage it. It's irritating. Also it's nearly always hardware that's the root cause of issues, but but the issues are masked by firmware and software that can't cope with faulty hardware because the firmware engineers never get hold of any faulty hardware to develop on. Or worse, they develop on faulty hardware all the time, unknowingly, and when exposed to the real thing during production, it behaves differently. It's a shitshow.

Cas

[Tony]

This does sound like it might be a different issue than magic charging. When the bike went back to only giving half the range did you shut off the bike and wait awhile to see if the SOC came back up? That would be magic charging. If you just plugged it in immediately after the ride it will just charge back up to 100% but in half the time it should take. Now I remember your post about driving 220 km but I think you did it over a period of a week and only short trips. You will get good range doing that even with severe magic charging because every time you stop the SOC will correct itself. It's usually more pronounced on longer continuous rides. If you ride on a highway for say 70 km without stopping and then shut the bike off and wait an hour is the SOC higher when you turn it back on? How much does it increase? That would be magic charging.

Yes, The Energicas are heavier and taller and really more bike than I need but they are nice machines. I like my SR/S also except for the wonky SOC calculation but mine is pretty minor.

Yes, it does look like my problem is a different one, although I saw some minor magic charing. Like I would stop at 20% charge, and the next day it woud be 25%. But the major headache is I only got around 80km range out of it. Then I put it in the repair shop, they did find something they explained as elecric cable leakage, that didnt really make sense. But the problem disappeared and I clocked 220km roughly on a single charge. After that finished and I charged back up again, the 80km range estimate was back.

I never did ride it past 80km to see how long I could go on what is left,but I suspect it woulkd go for a very long time, but on a lower speed.

Anyway, the service shop claimed they fixed it again, but when I asked details, they were vague. They upgraded the firmware then said they found no error, and I asked if they confirmed the error was there before the update. Or maybe they simoply were unable to detect it. I suspect they by upgrading the firmware reset the charging estimate algorithm, making the bike seem fine again, but only temoprarily as before.

Anyawy, a lot of theories, quite frustrating when the issue is so elusive. I could give it up and simply use the bike as a city bike though, but I like to take a longer trip now and then. Also I worry about selling a weirdly malfunctional bike in the future. 

[electrictwowheeler]

Well, please let us know what happens this time when you start riding it again. Maybe you should try for a new battery.

[Tony]

Well, please let us know what happens this time when you start riding it again. Maybe you should try for a new battery.

Yes, that was what I was hpoing for when giving the serivce shop my bike before the winter, I thought they would have plenty of time to order a new battery and fix it properly. Instead they called me after a few days and said they fixed it, but didnt want to specify how. After pushing them it turned out they just installed the latest OTA firmware after doing some basic tests. So, my confidence is low.

I will post an update if I do not sell it. However, I will probably just go for the 2023 edition and sell the 2020 model. It is an expensive upgrade, but if that is what it takes to ride with confidence without more back and forth to the servide spot then I will just do that.