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[Gasoline]

OK.  I found a way to create the cable to talk to the elcon, and i have set it to 116VDC max voltage.  it is literally tape together with scotch tape because i don't have my soldering iron.

but it works. and i was able to get the pack up to 116 Volts.  Now i unplugged it and have left it alone.  Hopefully it will balance.  I took a screenshot of it right after i unplugged the elcon.

The elcon itself seems to throttle down its power draw, i believe that i have a charging profile that was programmed by Sayyid, so the closer i get to target max voltage, the less current it will output.

I'm hopeful again now.

now i'm thinking about how to put the monolith back together while still making it relatively waterproof.  probably some non-acetic acid off-gassing caulk.  I've had good luck with some 3m boat caulk before.  will do a bit of research.

Thank you very much DerKrawallkeks, you're right, you've been correct the whole time, i just needed to read and follow instructions.

hoping for the best,

Gasoline

My Elcons do not use the CANBUS. I see no real advantage to it. I like mine to shut off at 95%. By the time I put the Elcons away, I am close to 100% SOC anyway from the OBC taking over. And even with the Elcons with CANBUS, the Elcon will drop way down in power at 95% SOC anyway. And I only charge to 100% when I think I really could use it, which is not that often.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

@DonTom
I wanted to comment on that. The Elcon seems to drop down in power at 95% SOC, but I want to clarify that this is not anything actively done by the charger. This charger can go to 132V. When you set it to 116V, and get close to 116V (full bike), the charger will go full power literally until 115,99V INSIDE THE CHARGER. At the instant it hits 116V INSIDE THE CHARGER, current will start dropping off.

What we see in terms of voltage and SOC at the bike is a different story, because of the internal resistance of the cells and the voltage drop across the plugs and wires connecting the charger to the bike.

The process goes like this:
1. Charger hits 116V.
     - Current will start dropping (the charger is not doing this actively, it's a result of it keeping the voltage at 116V)
     - The battery at this point is still slightly <116V due to the resistance of the wires and plugs
2. Battery equalizes very close to 116V, it's almost the same as the charger.
     - There is still significant charge current, as the battery hasn't fully soaked in 116V yet.
     - It is 116V externally, but due to the voltage drop across the internal resistance, the cells themselves aren't actually at 116V yet.
     - If you were to take the charger away, voltage would drop.

What I am trying to say is that the charger itself does not actively reduce power as it gets close to 116V internally. That reduction in power that we observe close to 100% only happens due to wires with resistance and battery cells with internal resistance.

[DerKrawallkeks]

Hey,

sounds like good news! While Auriga certainly is right that an apparently bad cell is unlikely to perform well, there is one hope: stored at 3,7V the aging is less than at 4V.
So the fact that it's at 3,7V itself is not at all a problem just the question how it went there.

You'll see, and reprogramming the Elcon is quite the achievement in itself:D I have a question, cause I had struggled with that. It sounds like you didn't need a CAN controller before to use your Elcon, and just now you made a cable and reprogrammed it, is that right?
Cause in my experience, the CAN enabled version always needed constant messaging from a CAN controller to work.

Best regards!

[DerKrawallkeks]

Now that you charged to 116V, your cell voltages of the high cells should now be very slightly above 4,15V. They should be 4,16V and the BMS will now hopefully discharge them to 4,15V, and the overall voltage should drop to roughly 115,5V. You will have to repeat that process of charging it back up to 116V.

If you want to speed it up, I recommend you charge it to 116,2V instead of 116,0V, cause that's the actual full voltage. That'll "overcharge" the high cells slightly more, and it'll equalize more with the low cell in one go.

[Gasoline]

Hi all,

apologies for the late post, and appreciate everyone for your help and support.  Everyone's knowledge was really helpful to me.

DerKrawallkeks, I am still of the thought that the #14 cell that is so low was low because of the OBC failing, and being unable to put the battery into balance.  And over time, without the previous owner riding the bike much, it slowly just got drained more and more.  I also believe that the explanation for #14 falling so low is because it is the one supplying the balance circuitry its power.  This is unverified, but it makes sense in my mind.

regarding the elcon charger, I was able to program the Elcon charge because i have the Thunderstruck Motors EV Charge Controller v3.0 programming manual.  And i was able to fabricate a serial port cable which worked.  The Elcon charger i have is this model:  HK-MF-144-23, provided by https://elconchargers.com/    Sorry if i wasn't clear about this before.

Somebody had mentioned that i could charge the cell itself that was low (#14), but i didn't do this, even though i had the battery pack apart and had access to the cables.  Instead, I was able to get the command "dobal" to work.  and it is very very slowly balancing the cells all down to the level which #14 is at.  it's very slow, but I'm enjoying watching the numbers decrease over time.  It's like a very small heater that will last a few weeks. ha ha.

Alternately i could keep the pack plugged in and let the system balance itself when it's top-balancing.  I think both are good choices. 

I shouldn't have taken the pack apart, but I learned what it takes to put an electric motorcycle together in the meantime, so that's a good thing.

Hope you all are doing well, and happy new year!

Gasoline

Hey,

sounds like good news! While Auriga certainly is right that an apparently bad cell is unlikely to perform well, there is one hope: stored at 3,7V the aging is less than at 4V.
So the fact that it's at 3,7V itself is not at all a problem just the question how it went there.

You'll see, and reprogramming the Elcon is quite the achievement in itself:D I have a question, cause I had struggled with that. It sounds like you didn't need a CAN controller before to use your Elcon, and just now you made a cable and reprogrammed it, is that right?
Cause in my experience, the CAN enabled version always needed constant messaging from a CAN controller to work.

Best regards!

[DerKrawallkeks]

Hey,

sounds great! I didn't know there was a "dobal" command. You were right when you first guessed something like that might exist.

About cell #14 powering the B;S, that could be possible of course, even though I would find that a bit strange. Also many people have failing onboard chargers and don't run into that problem.
But whatever the issue is, I have good hope for your battery. Keep us posted!

[DerKrawallkeks]

Hey,
is that Zero back in action?

[Gasoline]

Well I’ve  learned a lot.

Simply doing dobal command is not sufficient.  As all the other cells are discharging, the BMS is also using cell 14 up.  So it’s like racing to the bottom.

The only way to actually make gains on the balance is to plug the battery in and continue topping up the battery, to charge up whatever was used on cell 14. 

I am finally able to spend time with the bike daily, and have gotten the cell balance from 305mv, now down to about 265 mv.  This happened over the course of a week or so.


When riding the bike with 300mv imbalance the bike will go into limp mode where I can’t go over 20-25 mph or so.  Hopefully this behavior stops once cell balance is closer to balanced.

The need for a programmable charger is important because as the cell balance gets closer to 0, the total voltage is decreasing on the other cells.

This is a lot, I should have charged the individual cell 14 when I had the monolith open.

Other people may not have let the bike sit for 3 years without charging, this is what the previous owner did.

G

[Gasoline]

A but about the console commands: dobackgroundbal, and dobal, and stopbal:

Dobackgroundbal forces the pack to balance all cells.  It gives a minuscule report on terminal, without all of the detail that “dobal” does.

This allows you to still use the console port for other things while it’s balancing.

To stop, type “stopbal”

The Dobal command completely takes over you terminal, and any key will stop balancing.

I used a raspberrypi 4 to connect to the com port, with Remote Desktop setup, so I can remote in via another computer.

G

[DerKrawallkeks]

I don't quite understand why you are trying to balance via console, something noone has ever really tried or needed.
If you just charge the battery up it'll balance automatically, a one time process, no riding or anything involved.

[Gasoline]

fair point.

because I don't use the onboard charger, my battery contacts only stay connected for 1 hour, with my key inserted, headlight is on.

because of this, I can't just leave the bike plugged in charging / balancing all the time.

this is suboptimal, and I don't know how to get the contactor to stay connected without the key. because of this, I use the console to balance.

you're right, if I am @ 100% charge, then the battery will balance itself, but it requires me to turn the key every 1 hour to reset the timer.

I wonder if there's a way to extend the on-time per key turn.

G

[electrictwowheeler]

So, if I understand you right, you are saying that the bike will only go 25 mph. It seems to me that two things could cause that behavior. Either the low cell voltage is dropping very low and the BMS is cutting back power or the internal resistance in all the cells is so high that it can only supply enough current to attain 25mph. Is there a way you could get the cell voltages and pack voltage when the bike is actually being driven? That would tell you what is happening. The pack could be damaged beyond repair. It also seems odd that you would have an indicated SOC of 58% when the pack voltage is almost 114 volts. That voltage is more like 95% soc. If the pack has high resistance you will see allot of voltage sag when a load is applied. It would be easy enough to hook up a voltmeter to the pack and ride it. Worth a try.

[DerKrawallkeks]

You can change the key timeout in the BMS console. Then the bike will stay on for longer than an hour:)
If you connect to the big brown anderson external charging plug, it has two aux pins. If you put 5 V on one of them and charge with at least 4A, the contactor will stay closed as well.

[DonTom]

If you connect to the big brown anderson external charging plug, it has two aux pins. If you put 5 V on one of them and charge with at least 4A, the contactor will stay closed as well.

Have you tried that? See my message number nine in this thread.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[gt13013]

If you connect to the big brown anderson external charging plug, it has two aux pins. If you put 5 V on one of them and charge with at least 4A, the contactor will stay closed as well.

When you say "If you put 5 V on one of them", do you mean on any one of them?
I use this one with my charger and it works. The picture shows the Anderson connector at the end of my charger, that plugs into the bike connector

[gt13013]

@Gasoline : did your cell number 14 finally got refreshed and better in balance with the other cells?

BTW, the ZeroSpy for Zero Motorcycles Android application can give you in real time the min and max voltages of the cells in your battery, so that you can instantly estimate the balance during a ride. And it can record all these values with a time gap as close as 1 second, so that you can get the file and analyze it after a ride, as well as many other parameters (voltages, Amps, temperatures, SOC,...). It also has a lot of other interesting features.