Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Gasoline]

Yes you're right.  I definitely opened up the bike WAY too early. 

thank you for posting the link DerKrawallkeks for the cable.  I have the cable up and am inside of the bms comm port now.

here is what i find so far:

ZERO BMS> status


*************************************************************
*                       Pack Status                         *
*************************************************************

  General Configuration
  Current Time (RTC)    01/07/2023 00:58:49
  Firmware revision                      60
  Model Year                           2014
  Number of Bricks                        4
  Pack Type                   2014_monolith

  Pack Status
  State of Charge                        58 %
  Pack Voltage                      113.894 V
  Highest Cell                         4083 mV
  Lowest Cell                          3715 mV
  Cell Balance                          368 mV
  Pack Current                            0 A
  Highest Pack Temp                      19 C
  Lowest Pack Temp                       18 C

  Isolation Status
  Isolation Resistance               -15205 KOhms
  Isolation Voltage                    4067 mV
  Isolation Cell                          0

  Bike Status
  System On                              No
  Contactor Closed                       No
  CAN Connected                          No
  CAN Operational                        No

  Charger Status
  Ext Charger Attached                   No
  Ext Charger Enabled                   Yes
  MBB Charger Attached                   No
  Charging Allowed                      Yes

  Charger Disables:
  - None

  Warnings and Errors:
  - Current Sensor calibration has not been set.






_____

ZERO BMS> balstats


*************************************************************
*                    Balance Statistics                     *
*************************************************************

  - Balance Resistor Usage
    -   01       31198     31198    |
    -   02       31766     31766    |
    -   03       31122     31122    |
    -   04       30413     30413    |
    -   05       29554     29554    |
    -   06       29845     29845    |
    -   07       25909     25909    |
    -   08       25549     25549    |
    -   09       25795     25795    |
    -   10       25337     25337    |
    -   11       23786     23786    |
    -   12       24660     24660    |
    -   13       24586     24586    |
    -   14           0         0    |
    -   15       27039     27039    |
    -   16       26429     26429    |
    -   17       25289     25289    |
    -   18       26784     26784    |
    -   19       25762     25762    |
    -   20       26749     26749    |
    -   21       26902     26902    |
    -   22       24981     24981    |
    -   23       17169     17169    |
    -   24       26263     26263    |
    -   25       26149     26149    |
    -   26       26346     26346    |
    -   27       27252     27252    |
    -   28       25956     25956    |



____



ZERO BMS>inputs


*************************************************************
*                     BMS Measurements                      *
*************************************************************

  - Bank Voltages             :  01 -  4082 mV
                              :  02 -  4081 mV
                              :  03 -  4082 mV
                              :  04 -  4083 mV
                              :  05 -  4081 mV
                              :  06 -  4084 mV
                              :  07 -  4081 mV
                              :  08 -  4080 mV
                              :  09 -  4080 mV
                              :  10 -  4079 mV
                              :  11 -  4081 mV
                              :  12 -  4081 mV
                              :  13 -  4080 mV
                              :  14 -  3715 mV
                              :  15 -  4080 mV
                              :  16 -  4081 mV
                              :  17 -  4081 mV
                              :  18 -  4079 mV
                              :  19 -  4080 mV
                              :  20 -  4078 mV
                              :  21 -  4081 mV
                              :  22 -  4081 mV
                              :  23 -  4076 mV
                              :  24 -  4081 mV
                              :  25 -  4080 mV
                              :  26 -  4083 mV
                              :  27 -  4081 mV
                              :  28 -  4081 mV

  - Highest Cell              :  06 -  4084 mV
  - Lowest Cell               :  14 -  3715 mV
  - Pack Imbalance            :         369 mV

  - Bank Voltage Sum          :       113893 mV

  - Group Voltages            :  01 - 24470 mV
                              :  02 - 24456 mV
                              :  03 - 24088 mV
                              :  04 - 24458 mV
                              :  05 - 16308 mV

  - Group Voltage Sum         :       113780 mV

  - State Of Charge          :           58 %

  - 3.3V Supply               :        3250 mV
  - 5V Supply                 :        4950 mV

  - Pack Current              :           0 uA
  - Raw Current Sense Voltage :           0 mV
  - Cal Current Sense Voltage :           0 mV
  - Total Discharge           :    36494877 uA  - Total Adjusted Discharge  :    36494877 uA
  - Chassis Isolation Sense   :           0 mV (    0 ADC )
  - Precharge Voltage         :           0 mV (    0 ADC )

  - Pack Temps
    - Brick 0               :  00 -    19 C (  637 ADC, 1866mV )
                            :  01 -    18 C (  641 ADC, 1877mV )
    - Brick 1               :  00 -    19 C (  636 ADC, 1863mV )
                            :  01 -    19 C (  633 ADC, 1854mV )
    - Brick 2               :  00 -    19 C (  638 ADC, 1869mV )
                            :  01 -    19 C (  634 ADC, 1857mV )
    - Brick 3               :  00 -    19 C (  631 ADC, 1848mV )
                            :  01 -    19 C (  635 ADC, 1860mV )

  - BMS Temps                 :  00 -    20 C ( 4029 ADC )
                              :  01 -    20 C ( 3950 ADC )
                              :  02 -    19 C ( 3884 ADC )
                              :  03 -    23 C ( 4376 ADC )

  - MCU Internal Temp         :          12 C (  618 ADC )

  - Bike Is On                :  0
  - Charger 0 Is Connected    :  0

  - Board ID                  :  3
  - Node ID                   :  0

  - PL536 Fault Pin           :  0
  - PL536 Alert Pin           :  0
  - PL536 Drdy Pin            :  1





Seems like there is an issue with 14?  everyone else looks great.

Thank you, and yes, i will slow down now.  I'm planning to put the pack back together with some ugly caulking job maybe this weekend if it does not rain.

Also, DonTom, regarding the elcon,  when i am below 60% battery charge (according to the app)  the elcon will charge up to 1400 Watts on 120VAC.  but once it hits around 60%, if using the OBC, i can hear the contactor turning on and off.  but if i hook the Elcon in directly and turn the key on (forcing the contactor switch on) then It just draws 200watts or so.  maybe 175.

I have a AC clamp current measurer, and also monitor all of my power draw in my electrical system. (victron).  i am leaning towards saying that the elcon is working OK.  I trust Sayyid and his programming.

I will most likely not do anything unless you all recommend something. 

weird that only 1 cell is down, all the others are pretty close.

Appreciate you all!

 

[Gasoline]

also this one, i think the info is the same as the other that i had provided but it's nice to see the graph:

ZERO BMS> balance
  -   Cell  Voltage(mV)  Diff(mV)   Graph
    -   01        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   02        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   03        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   04        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   05        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   06        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   07        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   08        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   09        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   10        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   11        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   12        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   13        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   14        3714         0    -|
    -   15        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   16        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   17        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   18        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   19        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   20        4077       363    --------------------------|
    -   21        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   22        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   23        4076       362    --------------------------|
    -   24        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   25        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   26        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   27        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   28        4081       367    --------------------------|

  - Highest Bank :  04 (4083 mV)
  - Lowest Bank  :  14 (3714 mV)
  - Imbalance    : 369 mV

[Gasoline]

In my mind the easiest thing to do would be to charge that individual cell (14) up to 4V… but I don’t know a software way to do it, nor do I know where that cell’s balance cable is in the monolith. 

I found the command dbgb or dobackgroundbal in search history.  No mention of anybody using it though.

The elcon is set to target voltage of 114VDC, and according to  logs the monolith voltage is 113.89V.  So it’s in balance mode now?  Maybe all I need to do is keep it hooked up for a few days and it will balance itself and I don’t need to issue any commands?

Hope everyone is having a great weekend!

[DonTom]

also this one, i think the info is the same as the other that i had provided but it's nice to see the graph:

ZERO BMS> balance
  -   Cell  Voltage(mV)  Diff(mV)   Graph
    -   01        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   02        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   03        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   04        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   05        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   06        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   07        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   08        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   09        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   10        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   11        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   12        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   13        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   14        3714         0    -|
    -   15        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   16        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   17        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   18        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   19        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   20        4077       363    --------------------------|
    -   21        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   22        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   23        4076       362    --------------------------|
    -   24        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   25        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   26        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   27        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   28        4081       367    --------------------------|

  - Highest Bank :  04 (4083 mV)
  - Lowest Bank  :  14 (3714 mV)
  - Imbalance    : 369 mV

Something does look strange there with cell 14, perhaps it is turning off the Elcon. I expect something is telling the Elcon to shut off. If it is that cell 14 or not, I have no idea. Something on the CANBUS telling the Elcon to shut down, perhaps?  TBH, I have no idea what is going on there. I hope you find the problem and post it here.


My Elcons do not use the CANBUS. I see no real advantage to it. I like mine to shut off at 95%. By the time I put the Elcons away, I am close to 100% SOC anyway from the OBC taking over. And even with the Elcons with CANBUS, the Elcon will drop way down in power at 95% SOC anyway. And I only charge to 100% when I think I really could use it, which is not that often.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DerKrawallkeks]

Hey DonTom and Gasoline,

the Elcon has no communication with the bike and can not be turned off by the bike/BMS in any way.

But hey, you made good progress! So far you had assumed that the voltage of the pack is 100V, as you mentioned in a previous post. This was just wrong, and the pack is actually at 113,8V, which is the reason your Elcon does not charge. It has reached it's target voltage.

You are almost in the balancing region. It will start to balance once the first cells hit 4,15V. What you should do now is to set your Elcon charging current to the lowest it can go. Try 1A.
Then set the target voltage to 116V.

It would be helpful if you keep your laptop connected to the BMS and monitor the individual cell voltages. You'll see them rise. Once the highest hits 4,15V, you should stop and let it balance.
When you stop, the voltages will most likely immediately drop a tiny bit instantly. If that is the case, keep charging until the highest cell is a little above 4,15V, like 4,17V, and then stop and let it balance.

You're almost done:) it is unfortunately likely that this cell has some fault, because it is so far off the others. But while this is odd, 3,7V means your cell is not dead or anything. And it is actually a healthier storage voltage than the higher cells. So we'll keep our fingers crossed for you!

[DerKrawallkeks]

My Elcons do not use the CANBUS. I see no real advantage to it. I like mine to shut off at 95%. By the time I put the Elcons away, I am close to 100% SOC anyway from the OBC taking over. And even with the Elcons with CANBUS, the Elcon will drop way down in power at 95% SOC anyway. And I only charge to 100% when I think I really could use it, which is not that often.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

@DonTom
I wanted to comment on that. The Elcon seems to drop down in power at 95% SOC, but I want to clarify that this is not anything actively done by the charger. This charger can go to 132V. When you set it to 116V, and get close to 116V (full bike), the charger will go full power literally until 115,99V INSIDE THE CHARGER. At the instant it hits 116V INSIDE THE CHARGER, current will start dropping off.

What we see in terms of voltage and SOC at the bike is a different story, because of the internal resistance of the cells and the voltage drop across the plugs and wires connecting the charger to the bike.

The process goes like this:
1. Charger hits 116V.
     - Current will start dropping (the charger is not doing this actively, it's a result of it keeping the voltage at 116V)
     - The battery at this point is still slightly <116V due to the resistance of the wires and plugs
2. Battery equalizes very close to 116V, it's almost the same as the charger.
     - There is still significant charge current, as the battery hasn't fully soaked in 116V yet.
     - It is 116V externally, but due to the voltage drop across the internal resistance, the cells themselves aren't actually at 116V yet.
     - If you were to take the charger away, voltage would drop.

What I am trying to say is that the charger itself does not actively reduce power as it gets close to 116V internally. That reduction in power that we observe close to 100% only happens due to wires with resistance and battery cells with internal resistance.

[DonTom]

I wanted to comment on that. The Elcon seems to drop down in power at 95% SOC, but I want to clarify that this is not anything actively done by the charger.

Yes it is. The non-Canbus version I have is programed to TOTALLY drop out at 95% SOC unlike the CANBUS version. But that is still just a little less than 200 watts even after it drops out.


Not my opinion, but what Sayyed's boss told me himself when he asked me which programming I wanted to go with. I quicky said the non-CANBUS as I see no advantage to charging to 100% SOC.


Of course any of the chargers to an EV will lower the charge rate a lot by 95% anyway. One of the other reasons to NOT have the CANBUS charger.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DerKrawallkeks]

Interesting. I'm not so sure, from what I saw with my Elcons.
But they were CAN controlled so maybe that's why.

[DonTom]

Interesting. I'm not so sure, from what I saw with my Elcons.
But they were CAN controlled so maybe that's why.

Yes, that is the difference. Yours can charge to 100% SOC. Mine totally stop the charge at 95% SOC. Not counting the 200 watts residual even when they are turned off by the internal programming.


-Don- Auburn, CA

[DonTom]

also this one, i think the info is the same as the other that i had provided but it's nice to see the graph:

ZERO BMS> balance
  -   Cell  Voltage(mV)  Diff(mV)   Graph
    -   01        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   02        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   03        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   04        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   05        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   06        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   07        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   08        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   09        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   10        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   11        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   12        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   13        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   14        3714         0    -|
    -   15        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   16        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   17        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   18        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   19        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   20        4077       363    --------------------------|
    -   21        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   22        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   23        4076       362    --------------------------|
    -   24        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   25        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   26        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   27        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   28        4081       367    --------------------------|

  - Highest Bank :  04 (4083 mV)
  - Lowest Bank  :  14 (3714 mV)
  - Imbalance    : 369 mV

Does anybody else  here have a graph like above for their bike? I see 28 cells, but perhaps they reference them all to cell 14--the cell in the middle for the "diff", That would mean "0" is a normal reading there.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[TheRan]

also this one, i think the info is the same as the other that i had provided but it's nice to see the graph:

ZERO BMS> balance
  -   Cell  Voltage(mV)  Diff(mV)   Graph
    -   01        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   02        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   03        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   04        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   05        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   06        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   07        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   08        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   09        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   10        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   11        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   12        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   13        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   14        3714         0    -|
    -   15        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   16        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   17        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   18        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   19        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   20        4077       363    --------------------------|
    -   21        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   22        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   23        4076       362    --------------------------|
    -   24        4081       367    --------------------------|
    -   25        4080       366    --------------------------|
    -   26        4083       369    --------------------------|
    -   27        4082       368    --------------------------|
    -   28        4081       367    --------------------------|

  - Highest Bank :  04 (4083 mV)
  - Lowest Bank  :  14 (3714 mV)
  - Imbalance    : 369 mV

Does anybody else  here have a graph like above for their bike? I see 28 cells, but perhaps they reference them all to cell 14--the cell in the middle for the "diff", That would mean "0" is a normal reading there.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

Clearly it just shows the difference from the lowest cell, there has to be some reference zero point and that's perhaps easier than going from the highest cell and having a load of - signs everywhere or picking the middle cell and having a mix of positive and negative. And the 0 isn't a normal reading, obviously with all the other cells reading nearly 4.1v that cell should also be around that.

[Gasoline]

Does anyone have the level 2 or level 3 password for the bms interface?  DM's welcome if yo udont' want to post it.

I am not able to get the pack cells over 4.1 volts.  most likely because the elcon is maxed.  elcon is currently pulling 300 watts when i leave it plugged in.

i've had it plugged in for like 3 hours now, and the cell balance is still 375 millivolts.

ZERO BMS> balance
  -   Cell  Voltage(mV)  Diff(mV)   Graph
    -   01        4102       374    --------------------------|
    -   02        4102       374    --------------------------|
    -   03        4102       374    --------------------------|
    -   04        4103       375    --------------------------|
    -   05        4101       373    --------------------------|
    -   06        4103       375    --------------------------|
    -   07        4101       373    --------------------------|
    -   08        4100       372    --------------------------|
    -   09        4100       372    --------------------------|
    -   10        4099       371    --------------------------|
    -   11        4101       373    --------------------------|
    -   12        4101       373    --------------------------|
    -   13        4101       373    --------------------------|
    -   14        3728         0    -|
    -   15        4101       373    --------------------------|
    -   16        4102       374    --------------------------|
    -   17        4102       374    --------------------------|
    -   18        4100       372    --------------------------|
    -   19        4101       373    --------------------------|
    -   20        4098       370    --------------------------|
    -   21        4102       374    --------------------------|
    -   22        4101       373    --------------------------|
    -   23        4096       368    -------------------------|
    -   24        4100       372    --------------------------|
    -   25        4101       373    --------------------------|
    -   26        4105       377    --------------------------|
    -   27        4102       374    --------------------------|
    -   28        4102       374    --------------------------|

  - Highest Bank :  26 (4105 mV)
  - Lowest Bank  :  14 (3728 mV)
  - Imbalance    : 377 mV

this is the system after 3 hours.

i'd like to try force balancing.  i think i need level 1 or 2 for that.

[Auriga]

OK, so I can tell you right now the BMS does not have the oomph to balance that large of a delta in an individual cell. The charger doesn't matter, other than getting the SOC high enough, all the cells are connected together to the charger. The BMS has to do the balancing, more power won't help here.

Most of the time we have such a large imbalance in old batteries, it is due to irreversible battery cell aging. We got a lot of 13,14,15 batteries come in with a similar issues, and the only remedy Zero recommends is a battery replacement.

If that cell is aged, the ability to push or pull current into/from it is very different from its pals. If you did manage to charge it up, it would quickly revert to being imbalanced within a few rides at best. Sorry I don't have better news for you.

That being said, if you had the tools and engineering know how to isolate that cell, and trickle charge it to max, you could try it. But that's pretty squarely into dangerous waters for the untrained individual. This pack is more than capable of shocking you to death, or catching fire and burning down your house. Please be careful.

[Gasoline]

Thanks Auriga, appreciate your expertise here.  I can go in and trickle charge it as you said.  I guess my thought here regarding this pack's situation is that the 12V or 5V rails internally to the BMS are pulling from just cell 14?  I looked at logs and this bike had been "off the charger" for more than a year at one point.  far beyond the 1 month that Zero recommends.  so maybe this is just a case of cell 14 being used to keep the BMS board up and running for the year that it was sitting.

If trickle charging that cell is the only way, then i have the pack apart already, and i will try it.

If anyone knows where cell 14 bms line is, it will help me greatly save time.  otherwise, i'll just start pulling bms connector lines and start probing.

I tried the 1.21giXXX password, and it does not work. 

the previous owner had taken this bike in to a zero service center, and i think they upgraded the firmware, so that password may have been nuked?  not sure.

i'm working off very little information here but learning as much as i can.

Gasoline

OK, so I can tell you right now the BMS does not have the oomph to balance that large of a delta in an individual cell. The charger doesn't matter, other than getting the SOC high enough, all the cells are connected together to the charger. The BMS has to do the balancing, more power won't help here.

Most of the time we have such a large imbalance in old batteries, it is due to irreversible battery cell aging. We got a lot of 13,14,15 batteries come in with a similar issues, and the only remedy Zero recommends is a battery replacement.

If that cell is aged, the ability to push or pull current into/from it is very different from its pals. If you did manage to charge it up, it would quickly revert to being imbalanced within a few rides at best. Sorry I don't have better news for you.

That being said, if you had the tools and engineering know how to isolate that cell, and trickle charge it to max, you could try it. But that's pretty squarely into dangerous waters for the untrained individual. This pack is more than capable of shocking you to death, or catching fire and burning down your house. Please be careful.

[Gasoline]

oh.  I read this now and see it.

It looks like i am 2 volts shy of 116 V.  So i need to reprogram my elcon.

OK.  I will make a cable.  There are only so many combinations of 3 cables to a audio plug.   I prefer this method over anything else, i don't want to go probing into the bms cables.

ok will try.  thank you!

Gasoline

My Elcons do not use the CANBUS. I see no real advantage to it. I like mine to shut off at 95%. By the time I put the Elcons away, I am close to 100% SOC anyway from the OBC taking over. And even with the Elcons with CANBUS, the Elcon will drop way down in power at 95% SOC anyway. And I only charge to 100% when I think I really could use it, which is not that often.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

@DonTom
I wanted to comment on that. The Elcon seems to drop down in power at 95% SOC, but I want to clarify that this is not anything actively done by the charger. This charger can go to 132V. When you set it to 116V, and get close to 116V (full bike), the charger will go full power literally until 115,99V INSIDE THE CHARGER. At the instant it hits 116V INSIDE THE CHARGER, current will start dropping off.

What we see in terms of voltage and SOC at the bike is a different story, because of the internal resistance of the cells and the voltage drop across the plugs and wires connecting the charger to the bike.

The process goes like this:
1. Charger hits 116V.
     - Current will start dropping (the charger is not doing this actively, it's a result of it keeping the voltage at 116V)
     - The battery at this point is still slightly <116V due to the resistance of the wires and plugs
2. Battery equalizes very close to 116V, it's almost the same as the charger.
     - There is still significant charge current, as the battery hasn't fully soaked in 116V yet.
     - It is 116V externally, but due to the voltage drop across the internal resistance, the cells themselves aren't actually at 116V yet.
     - If you were to take the charger away, voltage would drop.

What I am trying to say is that the charger itself does not actively reduce power as it gets close to 116V internally. That reduction in power that we observe close to 100% only happens due to wires with resistance and battery cells with internal resistance.