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[DerKrawallkeks]

Hey Gasoline,

I am not sure what your Elcon is doing. As far as I know, the Zero BMS just does top-balancing.
That means once a cell goes above its full voltage, it gets discharged until it is back at full voltage.

There is no special communication with any charger neccessary, there's nothing to control, and I am not sure if there is an option like manually activate balancing.

Now you plugged your Elcon charger in correctly. It should start charging, no matter what you plug in first. Since you just have to manage to charge that battery, and we assume your OBC is dying, we should get your Elcon working properly. A few questions:

1. do you have the CAN enabled Elcon?
2. what is your target voltage set to on the Elcon?
3. what voltage does your battery have right now? (you can check that with the old Zero app or a multimeter at the big brown plug near the motor)

Connecting to the BMS and checking the cell voltages is a good idea in your case I think. It is very simple, if you have ever used a UART.
You just have to connect any FTDI/UART/Serial to USB adapter to the BMS. You can also use an arduino if you dont have an adapter. You don't need any special plug, just three of those female arduino wires will do the job.

https://www.elektroroller-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=16213

Here are a few images which show how to connect.
https://www.elektroroller-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=16213

[DonTom]

Thanks Dan, 

I’m plugging it in next to the motor. 

What is your procedure to get it to charge? I can’t seem to get the elcon to pull any power from my 120VAC.

I am trying first turning the key on the bike.  And then plugging the elcon in.

I don't have my 3.3KW chargers here, only my two 2.5 KW Elcons and a bunch of DelatQs.  But doesn't the Elcon 3.3 KW charger also have a led light you can see on opposite of the fan side?  Watch that light when you start charging and let me know what it does. You will NOT see that light until the Elcon is plugged in. It shines through the weatherproof stuff, IIRC. If it is like my 2.5KW, it can shine different colors of different blinking speeds and each one means something. It can show what your issue is.


Anyway, my 3.3 KW Elcons are non-Canbus. Only need the HV DC connections. Is yours the same type? Will stop charging at 95% SOC and then lets the OBC take over? I think that means if you cannot reach 100%, cells will not balance, but that isn't your issue for now.


The way I use mine is to put on the AC voltage on all the chargers at the same time, including the OBC. Key may be left out, if the OBC will close the contactor. You will hear the same click as when you turn the bike on, if the OBC is activating the contactor.


The bike turned on SHOULD also close the contactor for the OBC to work. If that contactor is closed, the Elcon should also work if it sees the high voltage from the battery. But turning on the bike (even with sidestand down) will close the contactor if the OBC cannot do it because of a failure.


There is even a way to keep the key out and close the contactor. But that takes a modification. See the messages starting here.  But that is only needed if you want to charge withOUT the OBC AND remove the key. I did that modification on both of my Zeros, so I can charge them at different rates and leave with the key in my pocket.


That shouldn't be necessary in your case. I had several reasons for doing such. But it is a good way to close the contactor with the key out when the OBC is NOT used.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Gasoline]

I make stupid decisions sometimes.

Since I’m this deep, how do I charge each battery separately?  I see balance lines on the top and front of the battery pack. 



On a side note, WTB 2014+ SR battery. 

[TEV]

On a side note, WTB 2014+ SR battery.

Your battery is more likely ok, you just have to charge it to 100%, and after a few charging/discharging cycles the cell balance will be ok too.
Do not mess with the connectors/ribbon cable  between the cells and BMS, I saw dealers damaging that ribbon cable, and it's not something that you will get an easy or fast replacement.

Those Elcon chargers are of two types:
1. CAN controlled- and you will need a controller that it's sold separately.
2. Switch enabled - instead of the CAN wires it has two wires coming out that needs to be touching together in order for the charger to get in charging mode.

Which Elcon do you have, and what's the maximum voltage that it's programmed to charge too?

Good luck.

Tom   

[DonTom]

2. Switch enabled - instead of the CAN wires it has two wires coming out that needs to be touching together in order for the charger to get in charging mode.

I forgot about that, as I have two wires shorted out right at the connector on my 3.3KW chargers (and shorted together inside the chargers on my 2.5 Elcon Chargers).


I now have a feeling that is "Gasoline's" problem with not being able to get the chargers to start up.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Gasoline]

Sorry all,

I have the canbus enabled version of the charger, and have the can controller as well.  I’ve found out that when the battery is at 60%,  the charger only pulls about 150 watts.

It won’t charge any more than 60% I think because the balance of the cells is way too far gone.

Maybe a cell or two are already at 4.2 volts or close to it.

How do I force balance the battery via software?  I saw the info about the front port for communications.  That will be the next thing I do. Pull cell voltage values, and see if I can find a way to manually discharge/charge cells.

[Gasoline]

ELcon charger target voltage is set to   maxv     : 114.0V

Current voltage, i believe is around 100 volts.  Battery percentage is 60%

cellbalance is 375 millivolts.

I'm going to see if i can talk to the battery bms directly as DerKrawallkeks recommended.

I don't look forward to putting the bike back together =(

[Gasoline]

If the BMS is doing top balancing.  then that means that i just need to plug it in for long enough for it to balance itself even though the battery is only 60%?

shoot, why did i take apart the battery then.  or even take apart the bike.

*Facepalm*

Hey Gasoline,

I am not sure what your Elcon is doing. As far as I know, the Zero BMS just does top-balancing.
That means once a cell goes above its full voltage, it gets discharged until it is back at full voltage.

There is no special communication with any charger neccessary, there's nothing to control, and I am not sure if there is an option like manually activate balancing.

Now you plugged your Elcon charger in correctly. It should start charging, no matter what you plug in first. Since you just have to manage to charge that battery, and we assume your OBC is dying, we should get your Elcon working properly. A few questions:

1. do you have the CAN enabled Elcon?
2. what is your target voltage set to on the Elcon?
3. what voltage does your battery have right now? (you can check that with the old Zero app or a multimeter at the big brown plug near the motor)

Connecting to the BMS and checking the cell voltages is a good idea in your case I think. It is very simple, if you have ever used a UART.
You just have to connect any FTDI/UART/Serial to USB adapter to the BMS. You can also use an arduino if you dont have an adapter. You don't need any special plug, just three of those female arduino wires will do the job.

https://www.elektroroller-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=16213

Here are a few images which show how to connect.
https://www.elektroroller-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=16213

[DonTom]

Sorry all,

I have the canbus enabled version of the charger, and have the can controller as well.  I’ve found out that when the battery is at 60%,  the charger only pulls about 150 watts.

It won’t charge any more than 60% I think because the balance of the cells is way too far gone.

Maybe a cell or two are already at 4.2 volts or close to it.

How do I force balance the battery via software?  I saw the info about the front port for communications.  That will be the next thing I do. Pull cell voltage values, and see if I can find a way to manually discharge/charge cells.

My Elcon charger puts out around 150 watts when it is DONE charging. Perhaps yours is not being activated by the Canbus. Mine is the non CANBUS version, so I don't know exactly how yours gets activated with that controller. But that 150 watts is like a residual power when it isn't even really on, but connected up to your battery. So I think that is a clue that your Elcon charger is not being activated.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Gasoline]

Thanks Don, I think the charger is working ok because when I drive a bit down to 55% battery, the elfin will pull 1300 watts or so charging.  This has to do with cell balance.

Does anyone know how to force the monolith to close the switch so I can feed in 114VDC to  the main lines?

I want to try charging it like this without the bike, just voltage source to monolith. Letting the BMS do it’s thing.

[Gasoline]

Ah I found it.  You’re a gem don.  Thank you.

Thanks Dan, 

I’m plugging it in next to the motor. 

What is your procedure to get it to charge? I can’t seem to get the elcon to pull any power from my 120VAC.

I am trying first turning the key on the bike.  And then plugging the elcon in.

I don't have my 3.3KW chargers here, only my two 2.5 KW Elcons and a bunch of DelatQs.  But doesn't the Elcon 3.3 KW charger also have a led light you can see on opposite of the fan side?  Watch that light when you start charging and let me know what it does. You will NOT see that light until the Elcon is plugged in. It shines through the weatherproof stuff, IIRC. If it is like my 2.5KW, it can shine different colors of different blinking speeds and each one means something. It can show what your issue is.


Anyway, my 3.3 KW Elcons are non-Canbus. Only need the HV DC connections. Is yours the same type? Will stop charging at 95% SOC and then lets the OBC take over? I think that means if you cannot reach 100%, cells will not balance, but that isn't your issue for now.


The way I use mine is to put on the AC voltage on all the chargers at the same time, including the OBC. Key may be left out, if the OBC will close the contactor. You will hear the same click as when you turn the bike on, if the OBC is activating the contactor.


The bike turned on SHOULD also close the contactor for the OBC to work. If that contactor is closed, the Elcon should also work if it sees the high voltage from the battery. But turning on the bike (even with sidestand down) will close the contactor if the OBC cannot do it because of a failure.


There is even a way to keep the key out and close the contactor. But that takes a modification. See the messages starting here.  But that is only needed if you want to charge withOUT the OBC AND remove the key. I did that modification on both of my Zeros, so I can charge them at different rates and leave with the key in my pocket.


That shouldn't be necessary in your case. I had several reasons for doing such. But it is a good way to close the contactor with the key out when the OBC is NOT used.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Gasoline]

Ah shoot. That is an 18 pin connector.  My connector on the back of the battery is 16 pins.

It’s late here.  I’ll try figuring out how to close the contactor tomorrow

[Gasoline]

Does anyone know how to charge the monolith when it is out of the bike?

Doghouse is open.

[DonTom]

Ah I found it.  You’re a gem don.  Thank you.

You found what?  Did you get the Elcon working?


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DerKrawallkeks]

Hey Gasoline,
I think you should slow down, read exactly what we say and not rip your bike apart. You are getting very valuable information from some of the most experienced guys here, that have been using Elcon chargers for a long time.

I understand that you think the cell imbalance is stopping your bike from charging, possibly because a cell already hit 4,15V.
Now: It is impossible for the external charger to know wether your cells are balanced or wether one of them is already full.
The external charger only sees the overall voltage, and it will charge your pack if it is less than 114V.

Therefore we can only tell you again, make sure that your Elcon is working correctly. There is no reason why it should slow down and stop charging.
The only way cell imbalance can stop the external charger is if the BMS decides to open the main contactor. It should be easy to determine this, because you would hear the click when it opens. So check that.

Now furthermore, like you already have planned, you should charge the battery fully, so the top balancing can take place.
Assuming you get your charging working, throttle down the Elcon as low as you can go in terms of power/current. I suggested this many posts ago already. It is important, because as you're approaching a full battery, the unbalanced cells (with the higher voltage) will start pushing above the limit of 4,15V. To avoid the BMS opening the contactor for safety, charging current should ideally not be higher than the balancing current. You won't be able to go that low, therefore set it as low as possible and then charge for a few minutes, then let it rest for a few minutes, and repeat.