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[rgutt]

Alright, so we're over a week in for what was hopefully going to be simply a firmware update to the BMS to fix an issue in which it intermittently wouldn't "wake up." I dropped the bike off with the dealer last Wednesday. They contacted Zero, who then could not connect with the BMS. They told the dealer that the problem was I needed to supply them the yellow master key. The dealer comes to me with that, my response to which is 2021 SRs don't have a master key. That's only the bikes with the Cyper III system -- SRS/F and 2022+ SR. But of course, the dealer is getting their information from Zero, so I can't really convince them otherwise not that it would help. So I called Zero directly and confirmed with them that there is no master key for my bike. Why whoever they had working on my ticket thought there would have been when they should have had my VIN in the first place is beyond me. In any case, they communicated that back to the dealer, which really didn't change anything because they still couldn't communicate with the BMS. Skip to this week, and apparently the only employee at Zero who can look at the files they pulled from my bike is sick, so nothing is being done.

As someone who designs equipment and deals with both writing and updating firmware, I'd really like to know what they doing when they say they can't communicate with the BMS. As of now, the bike is still coming online when keyed on or charged, so the BMS is operating "normally" for the moment. As such, if there is a problem getting into the bootloader to push a firmware update, the problem almost has to be with the hardware. But of course, I didn't make this, so can't say anything definitively.

[wavelet]

Alright, so we're over a week in for what was hopefully going to be simply a firmware update to the BMS to fix an issue in which it intermittently wouldn't "wake up." I dropped the bike off with the dealer last Wednesday. They contacted Zero, who then could not connect with the BMS. They told the dealer that the problem was I needed to supply them the yellow master key. The dealer comes to me with that, my response to which is 2021 SRs don't have a master key. That's only the bikes with the Cyper III system -- SRS/F and 2022+ SR. But of course, the dealer is getting their information from Zero, so I can't really convince them otherwise not that it would help. So I called Zero directly and confirmed with them that there is no master key for my bike. Why whoever they had working on my ticket thought there would have been when they should have had my VIN in the first place is beyond me. In any case, they communicated that back to the dealer, which really didn't change anything because they still couldn't communicate with the BMS. Skip to this week, and apparently the only employee at Zero who can look at the files they pulled from my bike is sick, so nothing is being done.

As someone who designs equipment and deals with both writing and updating firmware, I'd really like to know what they doing when they say they can't communicate with the BMS. As of now, the bike is still coming online when keyed on or charged, so the BMS is operating "normally" for the moment. As such, if there is a problem getting into the bootloader to push a firmware update, the problem almost has to be with the hardware. But of course, I didn't make this, so can't say anything definitively.

For all practical purposes, Zero is a small startup. They sell in the low 4 digits of motorcycles per year (globally, not just in the US).
And they're the largest manufacturer of actual e-motorcycles (*). Everyone else is still smaller. H-D may be a large company, but they sell a tiny number of e-bikes, so basically are no better.

Startups are no good at delivering widespread, reliable service (and the situation in the US is far better than in the RoW) -- they don't have the number of employees, financial or managerial resources to run a large parts/service network, and they don't sell enough bikes for many dealerships to get onboard.

If you want support similar to what you'd get from even a small ICE bike manufacturer, you're going to have to wait until at least 3 large manufacturers actually release e-motorcycles commercially, and sell in the mid-5 digits per year (each); that's 2 orders of magnitude beyond where we're today. Judging by the rate things are developing both at the Japanese Big 4 and at European manufacturers, this is at least a decade away. There will be Indian manufacturers making bikes sooner, but not at ICE-bike type power or range (more like 250cc-400cc power, 100mi highway (not freeway) range.
A major reason why this will takea decade is that battery range will need ot improve 2.5x-3x while weight decreases to allow any kind of full-day 400mi trips, even with charging stops (goes for all touring, sport-touring and adventure touring uses). Until then, the bikes work for commuting or slow-speed local offroad use only.

(*)I'm not counting the literally millions of 50cc-equivalent urban electric scooters in Asia,  or tens of thousands of 125cc-equivalent suburban commuter/delivery e-scooters sold globally.

[Richard230]

Wavelet, your post above regarding the electric motorcycle (*) industry mirrors my thoughts also. Especially after buying 5 electric motorcycles from two different startup brands over the past 13 years.

[mdjak1]

Alright, so we're over a week in for what was hopefully going to be simply a firmware update to the BMS to fix an issue in which it intermittently wouldn't "wake up." I dropped the bike off with the dealer last Wednesday. They contacted Zero, who then could not connect with the BMS. They told the dealer that the problem was I needed to supply them the yellow master key. ............................

I've got a similar issue on my 2018 SR.    I had some error codes and flashing warning lights.  The codes seemed to relate to the BMS.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=12264.0
So there was going to be a Zero Demo event at my local dealer December 9, so I booked a test ride and a service appointment for the dealership service department to check out the issue on the same day.    I gave the dealer the bike at 9:15 am on the demo day and went out on a ride on a DSR/X.   I came back and the service person told me that they did a firmware update and the bike was no longer working.  The dealer couldn't get the bike to run that day at all and after taking 3 test rides on the DSR/X including one with my wife who came to get me, I went home without my bike.   This past week the dealer hasn't gotten to do all the required diagnosis yet.    I spoke with them today, Dec. 17,  and they promise me to get to it in the coming week. 

It makes me wonder if the design on the Zero isn't too integrated regarding the BMS.  I guess the BMS is built into the battery and not just hanging off the frame in an easily replaced location.  Maybe if the the main components were individualized and simply replaced, the bikes would be easier to service by just swapping new parts for potentially defective parts?

For all practical purposes, Zero is a small startup. They sell in the low 4 digits of motorcycles per year (globally, not just in the US).
And they're the largest manufacturer of actual e-motorcycles (*). Everyone else is still smaller. H-D may be a large company, but they sell a tiny number of e-bikes, so basically are no better.

Startups are no good at delivering widespread, reliable service (and the situation in the US is far better than in the RoW) -- they don't have the number of employees, financial or managerial resources to run a large parts/service network, and they don't sell enough bikes for many dealerships to get onboard.

I am wondering whether in some locations Zero needs to have a more centralized, larger service group for more complicated, electric/electronic issues.   A place where the technicians are actually Zero employees and only work on Zeros that are either brought in by customers or transferred by other dealerships in the region (or perhaps a small group of traveling technicians).    This way they are more likely to have a more comprehensive knowledge of the bikes as well as the spare parts required to fix them quickly.   

In my view, very few of these Zero dealerships probably see enough bikes brought in for service to have a dedicated Zero technician who can learn and maintain his/her knowledge of these bikes.  So Zero has to train a technician at every dealership, hope that person has understood what they were supposed to have learned and pray that the technicians at all these dealership don't leave the job for some other job where their knowledge will end up unused.

     

[Richard230]

I don't know about the main battery module, but when I bought my 2014 S with a PT (installed by the retail dealer), the PT was defective and my bike wasn't recognizing it. Zero sent a technician from the factory to my dealer and he replaced the PT and then he found a connector that had its pins bent when it was assembled at the factory. After he installed the new PT and straightened out the pins on the connector, the bike has run perfectly ever since (except for a dead OBC a few years ago). He showed me the old PT and it had a little BMS about the size of a match box stuck to the side of its case, which he claimed was defective.

[rgutt]

Well, I have an update, and it really doesn't speak well to Zero's customer service or upholding of their warranty. Their computers for some reason cannot connect to the BMS. Currently, the bike is working. The BMS issue is intermittent. It happened once in February of which they have on record from when I contacted them and then twice again this month just before I got it to a dealer.

In July of this year, due to a lack of sufficient slack and strain relief on the wires that lead into the ignition switch, the wires pulled off their solder pads inside the switch. Zero has this on record as well, and rather than simply mail me a new ignition switch, they expected me to make two 400-mile round trips to the nearest dealer at the time. I removed and repaired the switch, and the bike at least from that perspective has been fine ever since.

Now, they are trying to say that they cannot connect to the bike because the wiring isn't "stock." Mind you, I didn't alter the ignition wiring. I simply repaired it to put it back to stock when their faulty assembly failed. Second, as far as I can tell, the ignition switch does nothing more than pass 12 volts back to the MBB. The BMS is accessible through CAN at the OBDII connector and TTL at the connector behind the rubber plug on the front of the battery, neither of which has anything to do with the ignition switch. And for those who don't know, the 2021 SRs didn't yet use the coded keys, so the ignition switch really is just a dumb switch. Anyway, Zero is telling the dealer they will not cover the ignition switch or diagnosis of why THEIR computers cannot communicate with THEIR BMS under warranty, as though anything I could do on the outside of the bike that wouldn't also render it completely inoperable would in any way affect their firmware. If I could manipulate their firmware, I wouldn't have to go to them to get this crap fixed.

[rgutt]

And after a month, the bike is back. Zero was suggesting to the dealer that the wiring harness needed to be replaced. Based off what the dealer was telling me about the issues (and I never did get to speak with the tech who was plugging into the bike), I suggested maybe they were plugging into the wrong port. There are 2 OBDII ports on the 2021 SR, but only one has access to the MBB TTL lines. Zero should have known that, but it apparently never dawned on them that one of their techs would plug into the wrong port even though they put them right next to each other. Why they would suggest replacing the wiring harness before checking continuity is also beyond me. I say they never instructed the dealer to check for continuity because had they done so, they would have seen NO WIRES in the terminals. It took me, the customer, to suggest it to the dealer to finally get the situation righted. They pushed the firmware, and it's done. As the problem I am hoping to fix is intermittent in nature (BMS failure to wake up upon power up), I have no way to know if the problem is actually fixed. But if it happens again out of warranty, I'll just be gutting all of Zero's hardware and letting the Sevcon and an aftermarket BMS do everything.

[lunarx]

So hilarious but mostly sad   

I can only imagine how badly they would have botched the Ignition Replacement job, had you taken it to them.
Then they assume you did a worse job than their inept techs   

Not to jinx myself, but my SR/S has been rock-solid (I assume most peoples experience is similar).
I was just reviewing my maintenance records and the only think i've done is rear-pads, because of squeaking.
Unfortunately, the Ferodo replacements, might even squeak worse 

If i had to nit-pick, I guess some issues are moisture stains, inside the Headlights & LCD Panel.
I never even rode in rain, but I gave up caring about that minor cosmetic issue, after I realized what a nightmare it would be to seek a warranty claim.

Even if the bikes are mostly maintenance & trouble free, is no excuse for the horrific Customer Support.
With Zero dealers being so inept, Zero needs to be more involved in supporting Dealers & Customers.

[rgutt]

Fortunately, the dealer was receptive to my comments during the whole thing. I really can't fault them for doing what Zero was telling them to do. I would really like to know why the app-based firmware update capability for the cypher II bikes doesn't seem to work anymore -- and never has on my bike since I bought it mid-2021. Speaking of, my dash clock has NEVER kept time, but I don't feel that's worth the loss of the bike for some indeterminate amount of time to get fixed.