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[DonTom]

Don,

Excellent info!  Thank you. 

Battery is 7.2 KwH

Batteries KWH capacity is rated two ways. The 7.2 KWH is the max capacity and useable capacity is 6.3 KW. 6.3 KWH times 7= equals 44.1 miles. Your range was very good for that battery for the way you were riding.


The battery KWH above the useable is important for the battery longevity. If they would really let you charge it to the full 7.2, your battery wouldn't last nearly as long.


Another thing I should have mentioned that is bad for range is the changing of speeds. That's done a lot in mountain rides. You would get a better range if you could just stay at the same average speed for the entire trip.


Regen can only give back about 10% of the power going downhill coasting to get back up the same hill at the same speed. In many cases, you get better range without any regen at all. One can waste power with regen being misused. For an example, if you go down a steep hill then up right away, you lose more power by the regen slowing the bike down for the next hill, because in that case you would be wasting all that energy from the bike slowing down to go up the next hill.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DerKrawallkeks]

I know this has been discussed many times, but 7.2 kWh is not the max. capacity. It is a lie/marketing number based on nothing.

The real capacity of your bike is: Less than 3,64V*32Ah*2*28= 6,5kWh.
I say less than, because the cell only has 32Ah if it is charged up to 4.3V and discharged to 2,75V. Zero only charges then to 4,15V, therefore the real energy is less, probably 6kWh or less

[DonTom]

I know this has been discussed many times, but 7.2 kWh is not the max. capacity. It is a lie/marketing number based on nothing.

The real capacity of your bike is: Less than 3,64V*32Ah*2*28= 6,5kWh.
I say less than, because the cell only has 32Ah if it is charged up to 4.3V and discharged to 2,75V. Zero only charges then to 4,15V, therefore the real energy is less, probably 6kWh or less

I guess the lies on motorcycle specs have never stopped. Back in 1971, all my manuals say my 1971 BMW R75/5 gas tank is 6.3 gallons. I have had it totally dry. Cannot even get six gallons into it. More like 5.75 gallons for an exact number.


Same with just about every spec that can be a selling point. They lied about everything. I only use the gas tank as an example to show it's a deliberate lie. IOW,  that cannot be based on riding conditions or anything like that. Was just a pure lie based on nothing at all.


I now see things have not changed much since then.


So if you tried to charge all those cells in the Zero battery to the 7.2 KWH claimed max of the battery, will the battery blow up or what?




-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DerKrawallkeks]

For the full 7,2 kWh you'd need 35Ah. The 32 Ah cells reach 4,3 V at 32 Ah, after which they will be overcharged

[DonTom]

For the full 7,2 kWh you'd need 35Ah. The 32 Ah cells reach 4,3 V at 32 Ah, after which they will be overcharged

It will be perhaps overcharged to even get that 6KWH. My question is how much overcharging could the battery handle for just one time? Is that 7.2 really well proven to be an imaginary made-up number even under such tough conditions?


-Don-  Auburn, NV

[Pard]

Have close to 400 miles on the bike now.  Sent my Logs to Zero an they say all is well.

"Thank you for sending in your motorcycle’s logs. I was able to review the last few rides completed and your motorcycle is properly using the full capacity of your power pack.

 

Your power pack warranty expires on 11/3/2027. If you believe your power pack performance has decreased substantially at any point before the warranty expires, please feel free to send in a new set of logs and we would be happy to review them again.

 

Thank you,

 

Gavin Haight"

CX Electrical Engineer

 



 

380 El Pueblo Road

Scotts Valley, CA 95066

(888) RUN-ZERO Ext. 2

support@zeromotorcycles.com

zeromotorcycles.com

[DerKrawallkeks]

@Don
Yes 7.2 kWh is an imaginary number. I have access to the current cell datasheet that is not public. I think you know this stuff already but here's the math:
2 cells in parallel * 28 cells in series * 32 Ah * 3.64 V = 6.5 kWh.

Now those 32 Ah are actually only achieved at 4.3 V - 2.75 V, which is way higher than Zero charges them (and I think lower than they discharge).

Zero only charges them to 4.15 V as far as I know, achieving 28.6 Ah. The nominal voltage is also lower (3,6 V for the 4.15 V - 2.75 V range to be exact) than the 3.64 V, which belongs to the 4.3 V - 2.75 V range.

With the true 28.6 Ah at 3.6 V, the real capacity is 5,7 kWh.
This is all at 1C discharge and 25°C, both of which we don't really have, so the true value can be even lower.

This is a really bad case of false advertising.

Since you asked how much they can handle once in a while, that's 4.3 V, which is 32 Ah (6.5 kWh as mentioned above). That's the absolute max, and it causes significantly more degradation than the 4,15 V that Zero luckily uses.

[Pard]

@Don
Yes 7.2 kWh is an imaginary number. I have access to the current cell datasheet that is not public. I think you know this stuff already but here's the math:
2 cells in parallel * 28 cells in series * 32 Ah * 3.64 V = 6.5 kWh.

Now those 32 Ah are actually only achieved at 4.3 V - 2.75 V, which is way higher than Zero charges them (and I think lower than they discharge).

Zero only charges them to 4.15 V as far as I know, achieving 28.6 Ah. The nominal voltage is also lower (3,6 V for the 4.15 V - 2.75 V range to be exact) than the 3.64 V, which belongs to the 4.3 V - 2.75 V range.

With the true 28.6 Ah at 3.6 V, the real capacity is 5,7 kWh.
This is all at 1C discharge and 25°C, both of which we don't really have, so the true value can be even lower.

This is a really bad case of false advertising.

Since you asked how much they can handle once in a while, that's 4.3 V, which is 32 Ah (6.5 kWh as mentioned above). That's the absolute max, and it causes significantly more degradation than the 4,15 V that Zero luckily uses.

The false advertising is indeed concerning.

[DonTom]

This is a really bad case of false advertising.

If they wanted to be honest, they would say the "7.2 KWH max capacity"  battery they advertise at "6.5 KWH useable" would really be:


Max capacity= 6.5 KWH (lie of 0.7 KWH). A lie of 1.4KWH on the larger 14.4 KWH battery.


True useable capacity= 5.7KWH (lie of 0.6 KWH). A lie of 1.2KWH on the larger 14.4KWH battery.


Is Energica more honest with their battery size than Zero or do they all play the same game?

I really don't know much at all about EV batteries, just the very basics.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[svelectric]

The Max and Nominal capacity is right in the specs:  https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-fxe

[DerKrawallkeks]

@Don I'd have to look into Energica to check.
For Zero, I'd even say don't even advertise "max capacity 6.5 kWh". The simple reason is, you can't access it. There is no difference in nominal and usable in this case. All you ever get is 5.7 kWh.
(With all that, I am not exactly sure if the charge end Vorlage they use today is actually 4.15 V or a bit higher now).

[Pard]

The Max and Nominal capacity is right in the specs:  https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-fxe

I am not an electrical engineer, but I do pay attention to the reported range at various speeds and type of usage.

Those numbers seem to be pure BS to me.

I get 50 miles  out of a 100% charge and I have to baby the machine most of the time.

Fun, but disappointing.  I do feel like I was misled by the manufacturer and the dealer about capabilities.

I wish there was an option to add just a bit more battery to the machine.  An extra 20% would be nice indeed.

[DonTom]

The Max and Nominal capacity is right in the specs:  https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-fxe

I am not an electrical engineer, but I do pay attention to the reported range at various speeds and type of usage.

Those numbers seem to be pure BS to me.

I get 50 miles  out of a 100% charge and I have to baby the machine most of the time.

Fun, but disappointing.  I do feel like I was misled by the manufacturer and the dealer about capabilities.

I wish there was an option to add just a bit more battery to the machine.  An extra 20% would be nice indeed.

Can the Power Tank be added to the FXE?  It  can add 25% more range. But it is costly and makes the bike top heavy. And will also take 25% longer to charge to full.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Pard]

No options for additional battery capacity at this point.

[Richard230]

Looking at the specs for the FXE, it sure takes a long time to recharge its battery. Zero must be using a pretty wimpy charger.