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[SandyGnomes]

I expect your right and something to do 20kW or more would be pretty chunky.  The newer bikes can do 12kW AC with upgrades so I would have thought at least that in dc must be doable, assuming it's possible to have something that can do both jobs.  I don't see why the rectifier can't be separate but I only have a rudimentary knowledge of power electronics.

[princec]

It could certainly be done, just nobody's really ever seen a need to do it before now.

Honestly though I think Zero need to start work on their next-gen powertrain to be ready in the next 3-5 years, 400V and liquid cooled, no doubt requiring a reduction gear on the motor too.

Cas

[DonTom]

Wouldn't it basically be the ac charger without a rectifier?  Comms are weird for ccs but done over the CP line and there's plenty of stuff out there to do that, and there must be existing circuitry to read the old CP stuff and pass that to the chargers/bms.

What does "it" refer to in above?


-Don-  Reno, NV

[SandyGnomes]

Sorry, was thinking as I typed that. "It" was a DCDC convertor. Unless, as has just occured to me, they tranform then rectify. Probably best to ignore my ramblings and I should try to type fully formed thoughts.

[DonTom]

Wouldn't it basically be the ac charger without a rectifier?

No!  CCS is incredibly complicated. 3-phase industrial AC input, very fancy complicated program, very large DC power supply, etc.




-Don-  Donnor Summit, CA (getting a free CCS charge to my Energica)

[Skidz]

CCS is only complicated from the EVSE's point of view, from the  vehicle it's a lot less complicated. AFAICR it uses powerline ethernet to establish a vehicle connection, the vehicle handshakes on a current and a voltage and off it goes. Along the handshakes following, the vehicle reports SoC and current/voltage adjustments and that's it.
Electronically it can all be done. Most chargers rectify the 'raw' AC, then generate a high(ish) frequency for transformation, then re-rectify to DC for charging. The input of most switching power supplies (Which a charger mostly is) is DC capable because of this. Since Zero's chargers work from 110-230V it might be possible to convince a CCS station to give out 200/230V and feed it to the chargers. This was one of the paths I travelled to get ChaDeMo to go when Zero decided to stop supporting it, but then CCS took over and I gave up because of the rather involved way of handshaking.
And thats where the trouble starts; Since CCS expects a battery on the DC terminals and not a charger, some magic has to be done to convince the CCS to start.

[SandyGnomes]

It is effectively powerline comms but it uses the CP line rather than the power lines to talk over.

[DonTom]

CCS is only complicated from the EVSE's point of view, from the  vehicle it's a lot less complicated.

I am not so sure about that. What is being done during the initiation process before the CCS charger will even start charging?  There is obvious communication between the bike and CCS to set the CCS charger for your battery. Looking at stuff such as your voltage, battery temp, SOC and I am fairly sure a bit more than that.

Never walk away from a CCS charger until it gets past the initiation process. Failures there are probably a bit higher than 50% depending on which CCS charger is used. Some are much better than others. It often helps to NOT follow the instructions, especially the "plug in first" part, but there are a few that require such and will NEVER work if you don't, such as the one at Donnor Summit West Bound that I used yesterday. Will ONLY work when plugged in first. I have tried both ways several times. Always needed to plug those in first. But perhaps most are the opposite, regardless of what the instructions say on the charger.

I have never had CCS stop after it got past that initiation process, but before the initiation process completes, failures are the norm and have to reconnect again. Otten works on the 2nd or third try. I sure wish there was a way to restart without disconnecting the cable. It's often a hassle.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Skidz]

In case anyone was wondering, here's a design guide for CCS:
https://tesla.o.auroraobjects.eu/Design_Guide_Combined_Charging_System_V3_1_1.pdf

[DonTom]

In case anyone was wondering, here's a design guide for CCS:
https://tesla.o.auroraobjects.eu/Design_Guide_Combined_Charging_System_V3_1_1.pdf

Thanks for that!  I think that kinda shows CCS isn't all that simple.


Where did you find such info?




-Don-  Auburn, CA

[TireFryer426]

Not that its gospel, but my dealer said Zero has no intention to go CCS anytime soon.
I don't see them doing it until the next major refresh.  So the question becomes - how long are they going to ride out the SR* platform.  10 years?
I was hoping maybe there would be a significant platform change around 2024 or 2025.  In all of the Exro interviews I've watched, they say their target to have their product installed in the Zero bikes was that time frame.

Thats what I'm dragging my feet on.  I want to see what the next two years brings.  Then I'll decide between another Zero - or whether I move to Energica or if its an option by then a Ducati.

[Richard230]

Perhaps they will update their power train to a higher voltage that will accommodate CCS when one of their EV partners, like Polaris or some future investor, requests that they do so and is willing to foot the bill. 

[DonTom]

Perhaps they will update their power train to a higher voltage that will accommodate CCS when one of their EV partners, like Polaris or some future investor, requests that they do so and is willing to foot the bill. 

It's a lot more than just the battery. They will need to change everything electrical in the bike to run from the higher voltage.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Ashveratu]

Thats what I'm dragging my feet on.  I want to see what the next two years brings.  Then I'll decide between another Zero - or whether I move to Energica or if its an option by then a Ducati.

Triumph may be coming out with something interesting as well....https://www.triumphmotorcycles.com/for-the-ride/brand/project-triumph-te-1/phase-4

[Richard230]

Perhaps they will update their power train to a higher voltage that will accommodate CCS when one of their EV partners, like Polaris or some future investor, requests that they do so and is willing to foot the bill. 

It's a lot more than just the battery. They will need to change everything electrical in the bike to run from the higher voltage.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

Perhaps I should have said the entire power train, which would include the battery pack, the motor, the controller, BMS, MBB, and other systems needed to operate high voltage components. Doing that will take big bucks, but it will have to happen some day, especially once the market finally heats up.

Right now Zero bikes are fine for commuting and day trips, just not for long-distance touring. But maybe that is just not a market sector that they feel is worth the investment to get into.