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[TheRan]

No I agree that the numbers don't add up, I just don't think they're trying to deceive people by giving the best numbers based on options because those options simply don't exist. When they say it's 95% then it's 95% of 17.3kW/h because that's all that exists for the DSR/X, and they also give the same numbers for the SR/S and SR/F now (speccing them as 17.3, are the Cypher upgrades no longer a thing for 2023 bikes?) although they have more range at 93 miles versus 85 for the DSR/X.

[Skidz]

I learned at the launch event in Sicily from a journalist that spent significant time on bikes with CCS/DCFC that the 22kW charge power is overstated as he mentioned in most cases his bike would only charge at 4-6kW due to battery temperature limits.  So... CCS certainly expands the available infrastructure (by ~10%) one can use and provides higher peaks in ideal conditions, but I wonder if this inconvenient truth about other factors tends to be left out of other OEs marketing talking points...

This guy better call the dealer then, his battery is broken. My DCFC motorcycle charges with a normal battery around 27kW and when the battery is warm that drops to 14kW, at which point it's full. And the infrastructure point is completely dependent on where you live, in western Europe the providers are removing 11kW+ 3-phase chargers from fast charge stations because nobody uses them anymore (Fastned, anyone), given the much broader acceptance of CCS here. Not to mention we can use Tesla SC, which dramatically increases the number of chargers. In urban areas there is an abundance of 11kW 3-phase stations and about 10% 22kW stations, but if you're travelling more than a charge worth on the highway then you'd have to leave the highway and head into town to get a fast(er) charge. I have owned a DSR with 8kW charging and used a SR/S full option for about 6 weeks so been there, done that.

Speaking if inconvenient thruths, have you fixed the magic charging yet?

[sharagan]

charging up a 17.3 battery in 1 hour with a 12 kW charger is the new magic charging (and if no charger is around, you can use the old magic charging instead)

[sharagan]

I think I got it now, but I am still convinced that they are deceiving their audience.

The nominal capacity of the battery is 87.5% which is 15.2.
For them this is 110% for some strange reason
And then they claim a charge to 95% to be one hour.
For this you have to imagine the 15.2 to be 110% and you get 13.1 kW as the 95% charge target (but still optimistic, but they cover their back with the additional info, that this may vary).

At first glance you see:
max capacity is 17.3 kW
95% in one hour

and then you have "reviews" from the launch, where the reviewer simplifies it even further (as he was told on the presentation) that the standard charger charges it up in two hours and the extra charger in one hour.

For me this is false advertising.

[flynnstig82r]

This guy better call the dealer then, his battery is broken. My DCFC motorcycle charges with a normal battery around 27kW and when the battery is warm that drops to 14kW, at which point it's full. And the infrastructure point is completely dependent on where you live, in western Europe the providers are removing 11kW+ 3-phase chargers from fast charge stations because nobody uses them anymore (Fastned, anyone), given the much broader acceptance of CCS here. Not to mention we can use Tesla SC, which dramatically increases the number of chargers. In urban areas there is an abundance of 11kW 3-phase stations and about 10% 22kW stations, but if you're travelling more than a charge worth on the highway then you'd have to leave the highway and head into town to get a fast(er) charge. I have owned a DSR with 8kW charging and used a SR/S full option for about 6 weeks so been there, done that.

Speaking if inconvenient thruths, have you fixed the magic charging yet?

Where I live it gets very hot in the summer, but the lowest my DCFC charge rate ever got is 11 kW. I’ve heard of 21.5 kWh models dropping to 9 kW, but never 4-6. That would be unusual in the extreme, and probably calls for a warranty repair, as you say.

Also, it’s not just an Energica problem (although they are the most affected by heat). The charge rate on Zero’s also drop when it’s hot. My old ‘17 SR with 3.3 kW external charger and 2.5 kW charge tank never charged faster than 5.3 kW, sometimes even dropping into the 4’s. I didn’t own it long enough to see the winter rates with the external, but I suspect they would have been better.

[Richard230]

Here is a link to the Motorcycle.com article of the new 2013 Zero DSR/X model. It is the longest and most thorough review I have read of this new model to date: https://www.motorcycle.com/features/2023-zero-dsr-x-review-first-ride.html

BTW. they gave it's transmission's performance a perfect score of 10.   

[DonTom]

Also, it’s not just an Energica problem (although they are the most affected by heat). The charge rate on Zero’s also drop when it’s hot. My old ‘17 SR with 3.3 kW external charger and 2.5 kW charge tank never charged faster than 5.3 kW, sometimes even dropping into the 4’s. I didn’t own it long enough to see the winter rates with the external, but I suspect they would have been better.

My Zero SR wouldn't charge at all when above 100F after a long ride last year. I got home many hours late because of it.


But now I know to NOT use the OBC on hot days, use only my external chargers. The heat from the OBC raises up to the battery just above it.



-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Richard230]

Also, it’s not just an Energica problem (although they are the most affected by heat). The charge rate on Zero’s also drop when it’s hot. My old ‘17 SR with 3.3 kW external charger and 2.5 kW charge tank never charged faster than 5.3 kW, sometimes even dropping into the 4’s. I didn’t own it long enough to see the winter rates with the external, but I suspect they would have been better.

My Zero SR wouldn't charge at all when above 100F after a long ride last year. I got home many hours late because of it.


But now I know to NOT use the OBC on hot days, use only my external chargers. The heat from the OBC raises up to the battery just above it.



-Don-  Auburn, CA

I hadn't thought about it before, but that does make sense. I have never experienced a warm battery before as I never seem to charge when the ambient temperature is much above 60 degrees F.

[DonTom]

I hadn't thought about it before, but that does make sense. I have never experienced a warm battery before as I never seem to charge when the ambient temperature is much above 60 degrees F.

If I had to wait for that here or Reno, I wouldn't be able to charge all summer. Not even at midnight. You charge at the perfect temperature, but if you only use the OBC, you're not going to get much heat anyway. I normally charge my Zero SR at 8KW when on the road. I sometimes have to hog-up two J-plugs to charge it.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Richard230]

I hadn't thought about it before, but that does make sense. I have never experienced a warm battery before as I never seem to charge when the ambient temperature is much above 60 degrees F.

If I had to wait for that here or Reno, I wouldn't be able to charge all summer. Not even at midnight. You charge at the perfect temperature, but if you only use the OBC, you're not going to get much heat anyway. I normally charge my Zero SR at 8KW when on the road. I sometimes have to hog-up two J-plugs to charge it.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

Lately I have only been using the DeltaQ as that seems to balance my battery pack better than when using the OBC and I like the slower charging and less wear and tear on the OBC. Plus, its cooling fins make a nice hand warmer. I now only use the OBC when I visit my daughter and recharge before returning home.

[MikeL]

Reading the comments on the MOTOBOB DSR/X review I noticed how many 'range' numbers get thrown around by people.

• "I'll enjoy an "adventure" on this bike. 80 miles should get me to the shops and back."
• "With its 290 km (180 mile) range, the Zero DSR/X is only good for about two and half hours riding."
• "If the future of adventure bikes is 45 miles before heading home for a recharge, we’re going to have to come up with a new name for the segment.  I’d hardly consider a 45 mile trip an adventure."
• "So 85 miles at motorway speeds, and I bet that's unladen without luggage. So let's be generous and say 80 miles at motorway speeds when loaded up.. So at around 65 miles you need to start looking for a fast charger (assuming you paid for the fast charger upgrade), and then charge for at least an hour. So 1 hour of riding at best, then 1 hour at least of charging. Oh deary deary me. What a torrid adventure that would be."
• "EV Adventure bike? WTF are they thinking. It's bloody useless. 100 mile range. Heavy. Expensive."
• "Price does not match the picture with lots of optional parts! "Adventure" below 100 miles range is a joke only."
• "24 grand for roughly 100 miles range....what a f**ing JOKE!"

I think this shows just how confusing the 'range' issue is for most riders. Most of these are ICE guys most likely so they are already hating the motorcycle for one reason or another. This is an issue in the EV car and motorcycle industry. But it sure is annoying to read.

Also, just like with EV cars, everyone wants insane range numbers before they are even interested. One guy said he would need 500mile range before he would consider an EV motorcycle. 500?

[MVetter]

You're never going to win those people over so you have two choices: ignore them or mock them. Only choose the latter if you're good and ready to double down and start a fun flame war.

[Richard230]

This Saturday I rode my 2018 S with PT from my home in Pacifica, down Highway 1 to 92, then up the hill to Highway 35 and into the Santa Cruz Mountains to Alice's Restaurant. After having breakfast with some friends, I rode back down Highway 84 to the coast, then headed north along Highway 1 back to Pacifica. When I arrived home I had traveled 75 miles and my SOC was showing 43%.  No magic charging. On the way to Alice's I was traveling at 55 mph except when I got to Skyline Boulevard when I slowed to 40 mph as the highway was soaking wet from heavy drizzle and was a bit slippery. On the way back along the coast I was moving at 60 mph. 

[mdjak1]

I got an email from Zero about the DSR/X yesterday and noticed at the bottom they are still doing their 2022 Electric Experience Tour and will be in my area of Florida in November.     So I signed up for a test ride session.   I hope they have DSR/X models for test rides although they aren't listed.   But they will have them in Georgia in October?   

https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/events-home#535&filter=United%20States

[MikeL]

I did the factory demo ride today of the DSR/X. I'm very impressed with build quality, was a really fun ride. I felt the handlebars were a bit far forward. I would probably have to get risers or something.