Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Richard230]

If Farasis is providing the bricks as an assembled unit, then it might be that behind the scenes Zero is fighting a battle to get this issue to be determined battery-related. And Farasis might be blaming the software.

That wouldn't be the first time battery and vehicle manufacturers have pointed fingers at each other when having reliability issues. The most obvious example for me was when Zero recalled their entire production of 2012 S and DS models because a few caught on fire. The finger pointing went in both directions and I don't know who ultimately got stuck with the cost of buying the bikes back from the owners, but I do know that the following year Zero switched to Farasis batteries and have stuck with them ever since. However, I don't know what other choice they might have in today's vehicle battery market if they ever wanted to switch suppliers. 

[MVetter]

Should note that while Farasis does build the packs, Zero did the designs for all of them inhouse. In 2012 that was Luke and Bryan; they did a really good job making the packs more safe and rugged.

[Tony]

A quick update, although not much to say at this stage as the wheels are moving slowly.

The repair shop has contacted the Zero importer which has a direct line to Zero, bringing them all the info from my case. So hopefully they can figure out something, and I expect the Zero to head back into repairs soon.

I would guess the next move would be to replace the battery, and perhaps the BMS. At least @DonTom offered some hope from his experience where the problem was completely gone after a battery replacement.

I also read someone say they replaced the battery without getting rid of the issue. Perhaps Zero are sitting on a bad batch of batteries, and replacing it is more of a lottery than a reliable fix?

I am a software engineer myself, not a priest, and do not really like to be dependent on faith, luck and guesses, but it looks like this is where we are at. 

Will keep you guys posted once my bike has been churned through the system.

[NEW2elec]

Don has a gen 2 S with a 7.2 pack that had an older failing battery.

Magic Charging is a newer and assumed healthy until proven otherwise battery that is miscalculating the bikes SOC.

[Tony]

Don has a gen 2 S with a 7.2 pack that had an older failing battery.

Magic Charging is a newer and assumed healthy until proven otherwise battery that is miscalculating the bikes SOC.

From my understanding:

This problem does not happen with all bikes of the same type / release year, running the exact same BMS/SOC firmware.

If they are otherwise identical the magic charge issue can be caused by one of the following:

1. The individual drivers usage pattern confuses the algorithm
2. The age / health of the battery can cause the issue
3. An unspecified hardware issue is causing the problem (for example water damage to the electric system / BMS, or a bat batch component)

1 is software specific, 2-3 are hardware specific, could be a combination? To me, it looks like we have no definitive proof of the cause at this point, which is frustrating...

[NervEasy]

I have had 3 batteries in my SR/S. All the same outcome. Either extreme bad luck or.... Also in the beginning Zero was extremely quick with throwing batteries at the problem. Now I hear people are waiting months for a replacement and Zero is no longer directly offering me a replacement. I need to wait for a solution now. I have been waiting a long long time already.

[noyesknifer]

If I were you i'd try and lemon law that SR/S before your battery warranty runs out.  It seems obvious they have tried multiple times to fix a problem and cannot fix it.

[NervEasy]

I do not live in the US...

[electrictwowheeler]

I have had 3 batteries in my SR/S. All the same outcome. Either extreme bad luck or.... Also in the beginning Zero was extremely quick with throwing batteries at the problem. Now I hear people are waiting months for a replacement and Zero is no longer directly offering me a replacement. I need to wait for a solution now. I have been waiting a long long time already.

I always had pretty good range until last spring when I decided I really shouldn't be charging to 100% all the time so I started charging to 80% but after a while the distance I could ride in one continuous trip started to drop. I used to be able to ride down to 98 volts but after changing my charging habits I could only ride down to 100 volts so I could only do a continuous ride of like 80 miles instead of 90 miles so I went back to charging to 100% and my range went back to as before. Now I charge to 80% if I'm not riding for a couple of days and then top up to 100% the night before I'm going to use the bike.
Most of my rides are 50 to 100 miles with occasional rides of 200 miles plus where I have to charge a couple of times. So I am often using a pretty high percentage of the battery capacity. I think allot of riders only use from 80% to 20% so only a range of 60%.
 Do you think routinely using a small part of the bikes battery capacity might "teach" the BMS to think it has a reduced capacity?
Do you charge to something less than 100% routinely? If so you might try charging to 100% every day for a couple of weeks and see if that has any effect on the range calculation.

[Richard230]

I always charge to 100% the morning before I go for a ride, like I did this morning for a ride tomorrow. Between rides I leave the SOC at around 70%.

[mcvl]

HI, I am not a zero expert but electronic engineer  this is my theory  .
Magic charge =internal battery resistance degradation -->capacity seem good when you charging C=Amp x Time but connection between cell are degraded .In worst case (my SR/S) :When you ride  only two cell (on four cell) give max current to motor and the voltage fall rapidly , when you stop the other two cell charge slowly the lower cell voltage and the SOC go back up .When you ride slowly <50 km/h the four cell seem work together .For range :ZERO calculate capacity (that you can find with OBD serial --> BMS interface) with internal resistance R=delta V/I that fit with battery degradation (my SR/S 2020 have 61Ah capacity vs 120Ah).The range is calculate like this (capacity x voltage )/instant Wh =range .You can discharge to 0% and charge a 100% the calculated capacity don' move .The problem seem to be in battery  2x 56cells cells conception and wiring (SRF/S 2019,2020,2021) you can change the battery and you can have the same problem .Imagine the battery connection stress with 750A for 80Kw power .My dealer wait for 5 batteries change  on SRF/S + mine .You can understand that zero can't  do publicity and replace batterie without problems and every firmware will not change anything .I don't know who are designed battery Farasis or zero .New battery change will be with new 15.6kw  (new design)compatible .Drive slow for battery life ...

[MVetter]

HI, I am not a zero expert but electronic engineer  this is my theory  .
Magic charge =internal battery resistance degradation -->capacity seem good when you charging C=Amp x Time but connection between cell are degraded .In worst case (my SR/S) :When you ride  only two cell (on four cell) give max current to motor and the voltage fall rapidly , when you stop the other two cell charge slowly the lower cell voltage and the SOC go back up .When you ride slowly <50 km/h the four cell seem work together .For range :ZERO calculate capacity (that you can find with OBD serial --> BMS interface) with internal resistance R=delta V/I that fit with battery degradation (my SR/S 2020 have 61Ah capacity vs 120Ah).The range is calculate like this (capacity x voltage )/instant Wh =range .You can discharge to 0% and charge a 100% the calculated capacity don' move .The problem seem to be in battery  2x 56cells cells conception and wiring (SRF/S 2019,2020,2021) you can change the battery and you can have the same problem .Imagine the battery connection stress with 750A for 80Kw power .My dealer wait for 5 batteries change  on SRF/S + mine .You can understand that zero can't  do publicity and replace batterie without problems and every firmware will not change anything .I don't know who are designed battery Farasis or zero .New battery change will be with new 15.6kw  (new design)compatible .Drive slow for battery life ...

no

we already ruled this out years ago

[DonTom]

no

we already ruled this out years ago

What was it that ruled it out?


-Don-  Reno, NV

[mcvl]

OK, my theory on the magic charge was not good, at least in my case. After intervention from zero by reinitializing the software, everything returned to normal. I am attaching an extract from the logs before and after intervention. You will notice the framed parameters .

[Zelidar]

OK, my theory on the magic charge was not good, at least in my case. After intervention from zero by reinitializing the software, everything returned to normal.

Glad it ended well for you as well. In 2021 I went through a similar experience at about 32'000 km: magic charging & much shorter ranges --> battery partially defective --> new battery + software reset  + a couple of firmware updates --> back to normal. Today I have driven 20'000 km with the new battery.