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[electrictwowheeler]

I prefer the way Zero does it. Do we really want a bike that just stops all of a sudden? Better to have some warning. Does anyone know if the HD can be restarted after letting it sit for a while after the battery has been depleted? HD is using a higher voltage pack so less amp draw for the same power. For example, if you built a pack with 3-40 ah cells in series it would be the same KWH as 3-40ah cells in parallel but 3 times the voltage. If you drew X number of watts out of either pack the voltage sag would be the same for both because the series pack draw would be a third of the amps that the parallel pack would have. Its all the same except allot more copper is required for the cables and buss bars if using the parallel pack.

[Moto7575]

I would prefer a big red banner on the dashboard saying "battery almost depleted, you only have 5 to 10 km left, please find immeditiatly a charging point.'

You would get the warning, and keep the freedom to to do small nr of kilometers fast or a larger one slower.

I prefer the way Zero does it. Do we really want a bike that just stops all of a sudden? Better to have some warning. Does anyone know if the HD can be restarted after letting it sit for a while after the battery has been depleted? HD is using a higher voltage pack so less amp draw for the same power. For example, if you built a pack with 3-40 ah cells in series it would be the same KWH as 3-40ah cells in parallel but 3 times the voltage. If you drew X number of watts out of either pack the voltage sag would be the same for both because the series pack draw would be a third of the amps that the parallel pack would have. Its all the same except allot more copper is required for the cables and buss bars if using the parallel pack.

[MVetter]

I prefer the way Zero does it. Do we really want a bike that just stops all of a sudden?

I prefer the bike that behaves like it tells you it's going to. I prefer a bike where the SoC is consistent, predictable, and reliable.

If you don't want that, and prefer something that stops you at 40% pretending it's empty and says, "pull over for 30 minutes and really ponder if you think you should even be riding" then it sounds like you have the right bike for you. That is not the right bike for me, because I don't like being constantly lied to. To each their own, though.

[Fred]

Of course nobody wants a bike that shows the wrong state of charge. Zero should be jumping all over this and clearly aren't.

However, I agree with electrictwowheeler that I'd rather have a gradual reduction of power than a sudden stop. The only other alternative is to just ignore the calculated SoC and keep drawing power from the battery if it will let you, but that could damage it.

[MVetter]

I would prefer a big red banner on the dashboard saying "battery almost depleted, you only have 5 to 10 km left, please find immeditiatly a charging point.'

You would get the warning, and keep the freedom to to do small nr of kilometers fast or a larger one slower.

THE LIVEWIRE ALREADY DOES THIS. I feel like I'm going crazy reading these things

edit

[Tony]

...and the magic charge problem is back, after a full drain of the battery... 

Zero, so disappointed. Not sure if I want to hang on to this bike anymore...

[princec]

Chances of it being the battery pack at this point are nil. There is another component at fault and they don't know what it is because they're sadly not smart enough to fix it. This affects *so many* Zeros it is a wonder they have not offered to give you a loan bike, take yours, and figure out what is going wrong with it.

Zero have just given me a bike direct from Zero HQ while they replace the non-waterproofed fan controller boards on my SR/F. Food for thought.

Cas

[MVetter]

And yet people will still insist that I'm wrong and it *can't* be a firmware bug because [reasons].

[DonTom]

And yet people will still insist that I'm wrong and it *can't* be a firmware bug because [reasons].

I would expect it's a FW bug also, but perhaps not.


I say perhaps not because when the battery crapped out in my Zero DS (under warranty) it did the "magic charging" thing big time. Get down to around 2% SOC and wait 20 minutes for 20% SOC.  The new battery has no trace of the issue.


But I have a difficult time buying that so many Zeros can have a flakey battery.


BTW, what would you say the percentage of the 3rd gen bikes that have this "magic charging" issue?  Does it happen with all of them, or only some or what?


-Don-   Reno, NV

[NEW2elec]

OK the Magic Charging issue is this:  correct me if I'm wrong.

The bike is (this part is important) MIScalculating how much power is left in the battery.  That's the core problem, not actually bad cells.
It then defaults to a safety protocol designed to protect the battery from an over discharge resulting in restricted motor power.
If it was an accurate measure of a true low SOC all would be fine.  Just like a car going into limp mode to prevent further damage.

As it is as the bike sits and recalculates the SOC it adds % back and the bike then thinks it has enough battery power to drop the motor restriction.
 
Isn't this part of the BMS's job to monitor the cells and thus the whole battery to give the MBB the SOC figures?
And if so shouldn't that be where to look for either a program fault or faulty hardware?

[DonTom]

OK the Magic Charging issue is this:  correct me if I'm wrong.

The bike is (this part is important) MIScalculating how much power is left in the battery.  That's the core problem, not actually bad cells.
It then defaults to a safety protocol designed to protect the battery from an over discharge resulting in restricted motor power.
If it was an accurate measure of a true low SOC all would be fine.  Just like a car going into limp mode to prevent further damage.

As it is as the bike sits and recalculates the SOC it adds % back and the bike then thinks it has enough battery power to drop the motor restriction.
 
Isn't this part of the BMS's job to monitor the cells and thus the whole battery to give the MBB the SOC figures?
And if so shouldn't that be where to look for either a program fault or faulty hardware?

Is there a way to measure the battery voltage when this happens? Is the battery voltage the exact same when a "magic charge" is needed and when a "magic charge" is completed?  If the voltage is the exact same, that will prove it's flakey FW as then we know it cannot be the battery.


And Zero doesn't acknowledge the issue and fix it? That's what is really strange. IMO. They must know about it.  I would think that would justify a safety recall.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[NEW2elec]

Just to clear this little part up:
Brandon and Morgan coined the phrase "Magic Charging" because when Morgan lost motor power on the bike and pulled over, after an hour or more the bike's SOC would steadily go up as if the battery were somehow "magically" charging from thin air.

Obviously that wasn't the case and the bike was just slowly recalculating the true SOC.

[MVetter]

Correct. And Terry Hershner ran a voltage tap from the battery leads that go into the DC-DC so he could see the readout on a little screen. When the bike showed 0% it was as high as 100vdc still.

[DonTom]

Correct. And Terry Hershner ran a voltage tap from the battery leads that go into the DC-DC so he could see the readout on a little screen. When the bike showed 0% it was as high as 100vdc still.

But was it still 100 VDC after the "magic charge" was completed?


-Don-  Reno, NV

[MVetter]

of course

why would the pack voltage change?