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[MVetter]

The bike doesn't correctly recognize its own Ah capacity. It's listing 89 but it should be 114.

[stevenh]

The bike doesn't correctly recognize its own Ah capacity. It's listing 89 but it should be 114.

Based on the total voltage and min cell voltage, the pack would otherwise look healthy right, outside the strange low cell voltage while charging.

Steve

[MVetter]

Ok but you can see how the bike not knowing its own battery capacity might be a problem yes?

[stevenh]

Ok but you can see how the bike not knowing its own battery capacity might be a problem yes?

Yes, of course.  I guess the question is how did it get the impression it's capacity was lower, but that's the un-answered magic charging question.

Thanks for your input...  I guess a BMS reset should restore that estimate, but it will most likely move down base on others experiences.

Steve

[NervEasy]

Low cell voltage was sometimes even negative during charges for me . It is an indication for the issue.

From what I can deduce from what Zero told, and what my dealer told me and some other reports is that there is a problem with how the cells are connected inside the pack, leading to high transition resistances (don't know how to translate that correctly) between cell connections when the pack is under load or when charged.

I do not know what is correct about this, if anything, but I can see how it can totally ruin any pack capacity algorithms..

The gen3 14.4 packs are a little different on the inside then the gen2 14.4 packs also.

[DonTom]

Low cell voltage was sometimes even negative during charges for me . It is an indication for the issue.

From what I can deduce from what Zero told, and what my dealer told me and some other reports is that there is a problem with how the cells are connected inside the pack, leading to high transition resistances (don't know how to translate that correctly) between cell connections when the pack is under load or when charged.

I do not know what is correct about this, if anything, but I can see how it can totally ruin any pack capacity algorithms..

The gen3 14.4 packs are a little different on the inside then the gen2 14.4 packs also.

That makes perfect sense to me.


High resistance inside the battery (which will be a very small fraction of an ohm to give trouble) will be the same as if the added resistance were in series with the battery. It will get hotter and hotter there when riding (when the load is the heaviest) and as there is more heat, it goes even to a higher resistance. That means the voltage drops under heavy load. So now your SOC is much lower than it should be.


So what happens when you stop riding? It starts to cool off, lowering the resistance inside the battery, which means the battery voltage is starting to raise again. That is your so-called magic charge.


As I have posted here from the beginning, I expected magic charging to be a battery problem. It now looks like it is confirmed, even by Zero.


-Don- Reno, NV

[NEW2elec]

So that means the only real solution is a another complete battery recall like the 2012-2013 for all Gen 3 models pre 22 or 23 (I don't know if those are both the new design or not)?

When my 17 DSR had it's battery replaced it was at the very end of the 5 year warranty coverage, so the new battery got a 6 month parts warranty and it was no big deal since it was just extra time.

That brings up two big questions which are if a 2020 bike gets a new battery will Zero still honor the original 5 years for the replacement unit or does it just start the 6 month clock?  Also if this is a connection issue for the cells and not the cells themselves who is at fault and is stuck with the cost of the recall Zero or maybe Farasis?

If course I say recall but that hasn't been announced yet (or maybe never).

I think Richard230 got it right early on when he figured the bike got rushed out when the Livewire and + Energicas came out.

We'll see how things pan out but it sounds like ugly storm is brewing.

[FlipOW]

Low cell voltage was sometimes even negative during charges for me . It is an indication for the issue.

From what I can deduce from what Zero told, and what my dealer told me and some other reports is that there is a problem with how the cells are connected inside the pack, leading to high transition resistances (don't know how to translate that correctly) between cell connections when the pack is under load or when charged.

I do not know what is correct about this, if anything, but I can see how it can totally ruin any pack capacity algorithms..

The gen3 14.4 packs are a little different on the inside then the gen2 14.4 packs also.

That makes perfect sense to me.


High resistance inside the battery (which will be a very small fraction of an ohm to give trouble) will be the same as if the added resistance were in series with the battery. It will get hotter and hotter there when riding (when the load is the heaviest) and as there is more heat, it goes even to a higher resistance. That means the voltage drops under heavy load. So now your SOC is much lower than it should be.


So what happens when you stop riding? It starts to cool off, lowering the resistance inside the battery, which means the battery voltage is starting to raise again. That is your so-called magic charge.


As I have posted here from the beginning, I expected magic charging to be a battery problem. It now looks like it is confirmed, even by Zero.


-Don- Reno, NV

Probably too short sighted, but does this also mean that the slower you drive (the easier you are with the throttle..), the less power will be withdrawn from the battery, the less heat, the less resistance, etc..

I just bought an MY2020 SR/S (new, only 47km on the ODO) and I mainly drive on B-roads (80km/h), so I am curious what I will experience..

[DonTom]

Probably too short sighted, but does this also mean that the slower you drive (the easier you are with the throttle..), the less power will be withdrawn from the battery, the less heat, the less resistance, etc..

I just bought an MY2020 SR/S (new, only 47km on the ODO) and I mainly drive on B-roads (80km/h), so I am curious what I will experience..

Yes, you will drain the battery less and not have as much magic charging at slower speeds. But probably will still have some--perhaps enough to notice, just not as much. If the battery drains slower, it will also regain it back slower, therefore less "magic charging".


-Don-  Reno, NV

[stevenh]

My battery is replaced.  SOC now shows up 140Ah at a displayed 98% SOC and the “status” line shows 89%.

Steve