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Author Topic: Extra-Urban  (Read 1956 times)

DonTom

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Extra-Urban
« on: June 09, 2022, 11:54:11 AM »


What does  the  approximate average speed in Energica's  stupid name of "Extra-Urban"  translate to in either MPH or KMH?

I suppose just knowing the battery's  nominal capacity is all we really need to know.  We can figure the rest out from there. But I am curious what their claim is.

-Don-  Reno, NV
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PWM

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2022, 05:07:06 AM »


What does  the  approximate average speed in Energica's  stupid name of "Extra-Urban"  translate to in either MPH or KMH?


<40mph on a still day.  This is usually the low side of where aerodynamic drag becomes dominant load over friction, no?  Memory serves poorly to recall testing done in this realm a dozen years ago...it was much more anemic than an Energica so not sure how it correlates.

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DonTom

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2022, 03:33:29 AM »

<40mph on a still day. 
I hope it is not that slow! But that shows how silly the names are.


Here are the range specs for the 2023 Energica Experia:

City: 420 km (261 miles)
Combined: 256 km (160 miles)
Extra-Urban: 208 km (130 miles)
WMTC: 222 km (138 miles)


-Don-  Reno, NV

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yhafting

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2022, 09:13:32 PM »

<40mph on a still day. 
I hope it is not that slow! But that shows how silly the names are.


Here are the range specs for the 2023 Energica Experia:

City: 420 km (261 miles)
Combined: 256 km (160 miles)
Extra-Urban: 208 km (130 miles)
WMTC: 222 km (138 miles)


-Don-  Reno, NV
City speeds in Europe is basically 50km/h or sometimes 30km/h. I'm sure 420km is available somewhere in that range, however it is a ridiculous measure- who would ever want to go anywhere near that range without charging, as it implies ~10h riding. Now if you go multiple days without charging, then it might sound interesting, but i would not base my expectations on that number.

For someone looking into this bike id say you can confidently plan 160 km or 100 mile rides before charging on a full battery. At that stage you would want to visit a charger, although you can expect top have 25-35% left, so 200-220km will most likely be available. You will always want some spare juice when planning an arrival at a charging station, both in case there is much head wind or in case the infrastructure is occupied or otherwise fails. 

The physics of wind resistance aren't all that different between bikes. Although fairings can play a role, most likely the sitting position, luggage boxes etc will bring any long trip able bike down to practically the same level, so the battery size, and then charging speed is the limiting factors. Drivetrain efficiency doesn't make a world of difference- for all electric motorcycles it is dwarfed by driving speed, wind speed and driving style.

0.1kwh/km is a good rule of thumb for being entertained on twisty roads. Avoid highways and this is mostly always achievable. If you need going at 140 km/h average then you use .2 kwh/km, all deducted from the available energy storage. 
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MrMogensen

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2022, 12:55:57 AM »

0.1kwh/km is a good rule of thumb for being entertained on twisty roads. Avoid highways and this is mostly always achievable. If you need going at 140 km/h average then you use .2 kwh/km, all deducted from the available energy storage. 

If it's like this then 0,1 is really really good.
,2 kwh/km at 140 is pretty poor given a Tesla Model 3 would be near the same efficiency... 1,8 tonnes of quite sleek car).
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Hans2183

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2022, 02:59:57 PM »

Yes I agree with those numbers from yhafting. I never go 140 kph (that would be 154 kph on dash) but at 120-130 kph I already see 160-180 Wh/km numbers.

On 90 kph roads I often end up at 90 Wh/km average, including faster riding. (=177 km)

On 70 kph roads, which we don't have much of here in Wallonia, I see as low as 60 Wh/km. I can get that number on 90 kph roads also if I just ride conservative. (=266 km)

To get lower consumptions than that you'll have to try in my opinion. I don't try. Like I've seen 300 km range on the dash but only when I was stuck in traffic or following a slow truck that I can't pass.

Count with 16 kWh available and you get the ranges between brackets.
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yhafting

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2022, 03:36:37 PM »

0.1kwh/km is a good rule of thumb for being entertained on twisty roads. Avoid highways and this is mostly always achievable. If you need going at 140 km/h average then you use .2 kwh/km, all deducted from the available energy storage. 

If it's like this then 0,1 is really really good.
,2 kwh/km at 140 is pretty poor given a Tesla Model 3 would be near the same efficiency... 1,8 tonnes of quite sleek car).
Id like to see a model3  have at it at 200wh/km in 140. .2kwh/km on a model 3 cannot be anything but an average for mixed speed driving. I drive an Hyundai Ionic which at 60-80 roads can go below 110 wh/km (i have achieved this). The first few years, when i drove it like a petrol car, i used around 110 wh/km on average during summer. Now ill average around 130 to 140 wh/km but i drive harder (one pedal driving gets you there faster by the expense of energy and tire wear). However going at 130km/h even the ioniq is above 200 wh/km. I doubt anyone claiming that the model3 is more efficient than the smaller ioniq which also is extremely efficient.

The first year i rode the Zero SR, it reported an average of 66wh/km which is very little. The last year i had it, my average was about 77wh/km reported by the bike. The SS9 reports differently, so it is harder to get a comparable number. Since it mostly averages the last kilometres, and i have either faster or slower stretches that i pass before ending it is harder to tell. When i look at how much i charge, it seems that the difference between the zero and the SS9 is mostly due to me riding faster or using sidebags. I am sure the SS9 uses more, but it is probably within the range of 10% more, so really hard to tell on a single trip. Any way, both use much less per kilometer than the '17 hyundai ioniq. 

The SS9 reports the available battery depending on temperature. From what i have seen by commuting to work this spring, my working day of 88km usually landed me with 58% left when temperatures were around 8 degrees when parking, and nowdays when it is up to 20 the bike reports around 62% left during otherwise similar conditions. If i have 18,9kwh available at 20C, this gives me an average consumption of 82wh/km to work with the SS9.
Looking at how much i charge for my daily commute (including all sorts of charging efficiencies), my week day charging session (may be tainted with some extra rides) was in the range of 5,5kwh to 10kwh, mostly around 8.1, steadily decreasing down to 7.4kwh in june (6.4kwh to 8.5kwh). If we use 7.4kwh for 88km as a base for summer consumption commuting to Oslo, that is 84wh/km with a total of 19,4 kw to charge (including charging inefficiencies).

Looking at the charging efficiency, if i have 18.9 kw available when parking at 62% and charge 7.4kwh, this indicates 97% charging efficiency, which likely isnt true. Id guess it is around 90% which gives me some 17.5 kwh available at 20Celcius (which means i probably may get some more out of the bike. If 17.5 kwh is available to the bike at my 88km run, this indicates a summer consumption of 75wh/km on my daily commute. I think that is a fair assumption for my daily ride. Comparable numbers for the ioniq is about 125 wh/km (as reported by the car) for the same commute, so clearly the bike wins.

So all in all the bike consumption is as a base around 60-70% of that of an efficient car, such as an ioniq, going at mixed road/city speeds (50-90km/h). My guess is that the bike efficiency drops somewhat to the car when going faster, but even a streamlined car does use more at higher speeds, so i doubt the consumptions will intersect even if you are pushing past 140km/h.  That however doesnt mean that you at times will get higher number than a car may do at the same speed, since wind conditions affect consumption for any vehicle greatly. 
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MrMogensen

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2022, 03:08:00 PM »

Id like to see a model3  have at it at 200wh/km in 140. .2kwh/km on a model 3 cannot be anything but an average for mixed speed driving. I drive an Hyundai Ionic which at 60-80 roads can go below 110 wh/km (i have achieved this). The first few years, when i drove it like a petrol car, i used around 110 wh/km on average during summer. Now ill average around 130 to 140 wh/km but i drive harder (one pedal driving gets you there faster by the expense of energy and tire wear). However going at 130km/h even the ioniq is above 200 wh/km. I doubt anyone claiming that the model3 is more efficient than the smaller ioniq which also is extremely efficient.

When you write smaller Ioniq I am guessing it's not the new massive 5 you are referring to  ;D
If it's the bigger 38 kwh pack it is actually almost spot on same efficiency as Model3. LongRange about 1% higher and StandardRange about 1% lower. I am using ev-database.org as comparison.

I did write "near the same efficiency" => This guy is doing a Model3 test at 140 km/h at ends at 220 Wh/km - that really isn't far away. His corrected results are near end of video.


Impressive low Wh/km you have with your car, but that must be with hardly any km on highways. Way more than half of our km in Model3 is highway so not possible to touch your efficiency :)
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yhafting

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2022, 12:57:44 AM »

When you write smaller Ioniq I am guessing it's not the new massive 5 you are referring to  ;D
If it's the bigger 38 kwh pack it is actually almost spot on same efficiency as Model3. LongRange about 1% higher and StandardRange about 1% lower. I am using ev-database.org as comparison.

I did write "near the same efficiency" => This guy is doing a Model3 test at 140 km/h at ends at 220 Wh/km - that really isn't far away. His corrected results are near end of video.

Impressive low Wh/km you have with your car, but that must be with hardly any km on highways. Way more than half of our km in Model3 is highway so not possible to touch your efficiency :)
True, i got a 2017 ioniq EV (28kwh), and by central european standards, we do not have highways in Norway. (Going 140km/h here = jail mostly). ..

I checked the numbers from the guy in the video. His actual consumption per km varies from 205 to 248 wh/km (using his numbers for the verious stretches) [actually he has 331wh/km the last 7 km which is rather high, perhaps due to AC going hard while he is driving 25km/h, or some delay in the battery status report]. His average speed ends up at 109 km/h with an average of 222 wh/km but his car reports slightly different numbers. Now of course he partially drives much faster, and there is wind, so as expected a bit all over the place. Anyway i agree it is still impressive.
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MrMogensen

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2022, 09:15:22 PM »

Tried doing a strech of 140 km/h this morning but my 10 km highway commute is quite a bit up- and downhill - graph is bouncing up and down. Hard to get a reading over a flat couple of km so it can flatten. The average 10km was 228 Wh/km (according to cars own screen) but its useless until I find something flat.
I don't think any EV has yet beaten the efficiency of the 29 kWh Ioniq - at least when it's off the highway!
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SBK74

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2022, 02:53:08 PM »

Yes I agree with those numbers from yhafting. I never go 140 kph (that would be 154 kph on dash) but at 120-130 kph I already see 160-180 Wh/km numbers.

On 90 kph roads I often end up at 90 Wh/km average, including faster riding. (=177 km)

On 70 kph roads, which we don't have much of here in Wallonia, I see as low as 60 Wh/km. I can get that number on 90 kph roads also if I just ride conservative. (=266 km)

To get lower consumptions than that you'll have to try in my opinion. I don't try. Like I've seen 300 km range on the dash but only when I was stuck in traffic or following a slow truck that I can't pass.

Count with 16 kWh available and you get the ranges between brackets.

You are spot on indeed. On a moderately warm day the useable capacity of the 21,5 battery is max 16kWh and for the 13,4 battery it's max 10kWh, period!

I remember with the 2018 SS9 the FW update where Energica reduced from 11,7 kWh useable to 10kWh useable under ideal conditions. I had found out that driving constantly with 90-98Wh consumption resulted in range=SOC, where this used to be (before the FW update) almost 100-115Wh/km depending on temperature.


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DonTom

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2022, 09:13:06 PM »

You are spot on indeed. On a moderately warm day the useable capacity of the 21,5 battery is max 16kWh and for the 13,4 battery it's max 10kWh, period!
Which means the  60% of increased range between the "-" and "+" models should be at all speeds. Unlike shown in their own range specs. between the two.


-Don-  Auburn, CA
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Skidz

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2022, 02:42:00 PM »

Quote from: DonTom
Which means the  60% of increased range between the "-" and "+" models should be at all speeds. Unlike shown in their own range specs. between the two.

If the batteries are dead-on the same, yes. But if the chemistry is different, so are the battery characteristics. Without going into the nitty-gritty and keeping it simple, a battery has an internal resistance. If the 13.4kWh packs have a lower internal resistence, less energy is converted into heat by the battery at higher amps, and so the higher speeds could yeald more effective range. This would also account for the higher pack temps the 21.5kWh packs have after a long high speed drive or a fast charge.

And about comparing cars to bikes, a Tesla Model 3 has a CW profile of 0.23 whilst a motorcycle including rideris a lot worse. A racing bike like the Ego with the rider in full tuck can achieve a drag coefficient of 0.6. Given that accelerating an object is weight based but keeping speed based on air and roll resistance (Simplified for reasons), the cars get awkwardly close to the efficiency of our motorcycles. Last week I achieved a 151Wh/km in the Tesla M3 at 100km/h, while my Ribelle does the same stretch at 100km/h on 100Wh/km. This is my 144km commute. My Zero DSR did the same stretch on 9.8kWh but at around 90km/h, else I wouldn't make it with the 11.8kWh net capacity so that bike did it with about 70Wh/km.
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DonTom

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2022, 02:50:29 AM »

If the batteries are dead-on the same, yes. But if the chemistry is different, so are the battery characteristics. Without going into the nitty-gritty and keeping it simple, a battery has an internal resistance. If the 13.4kWh packs have a lower internal resistence, less energy is converted into heat by the battery at higher amps, and so the higher speeds could yeald more effective range. This would also account for the higher pack temps the 21.5kWh packs have after a long high speed drive or a fast charge.
IOW,  the  KWH spec of the  battery may no longer meet that KWH spec at higher speeds where there is a higher current drain with more heat. While another battery could have a wider range of that stated spec under varying loads.


-Don-  Reno, NV




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PWM

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Re: Extra-Urban
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2022, 06:51:59 AM »


And about comparing cars to bikes, a Tesla Model 3 has a CW profile of 0.23 whilst a motorcycle including rider is a lot worse.


CW?  Did you mean, Cd?
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