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[MVetter]

Most of that model station, the IES KeyWatt Wallbox 24, are set to output a max of 50 amps in the wild. The ratings of all charging stations, when that one was being designed, are based off an output voltage of 500vdc. This has changed a bit in the modern world but that's incidental. 50 Amps x 500 Volts = 25000 Watts. I don't know why they round down to 24000 and list it as such but there we are. Maybe 24 sounded cooler.

 The ones at H-D dealerships are tweaked and have a max output of 60 amps. Our bikes, and also LiveWires, do not operate at 500 volts. Our bikes operate between 280-330vdc. When I encounter these stations in the wild, and I've only ever seen them ChargePoint branded (like this one), they output a max of 50 amps. What's 50 Amps x 300 Volts (your nominal pack voltage) you ask? Why, 15000 Watts aka 15kW.

The H-D branded IES KeyWatt Wallbox 24 stations found at H-D dealerships, like this one, are set to deliver a max output of 60 amps. I have personally tested the linked station and know that it does this. 60 Amps x 300 Volts = 18000 Watts aka 18kW at nominal voltage.

If you want some LiveWire math those bikes operate between 250-300vdc so they'll see lower numbers from the same stations because they can only charge at 60 amps. Because the LiveWire's max charge rate from 0-40% of the battery is 80 amps and these stations can only output 60, it will take a LiveWire an hour and 11 minutes to charge to full at one of these stations. Which I have personally tested and documented. It'll do the flat hour at a regular 50kW station aka 100 Amp output.

But these ones are 60 Amps.

[DonTom]

Most of that model station, the IES KeyWatt Wallbox 24, are set to output a max of 50 amps in the wild. The ratings of all charging stations, when that one was being designed, are based off an output voltage of 500vdc. This has changed a bit in the modern world but that's incidental. 50 Amps x 500 Volts = 25000 Watts. I don't know why they round down to 24000 and list it as such but there we are. Maybe 24 sounded cooler.

 The ones at H-D dealerships are tweaked and have a max output of 60 amps. Our bikes, and also LiveWires, do not operate at 500 volts. Our bikes operate between 280-330vdc. When I encounter these stations in the wild, and I've only ever seen them ChargePoint branded (like this one), they output a max of 50 amps. What's 50 Amps x 300 Volts (your nominal pack voltage) you ask? Why, 15000 Watts aka 15kW.

The H-D branded IES KeyWatt Wallbox 24 stations found at H-D dealerships, like this one, are set to deliver a max output of 60 amps. I have personally tested the linked station and know that it does this. 60 Amps x 300 Volts = 18000 Watts aka 18kW at nominal voltage.

If you want some LiveWire math those bikes operate between 250-300vdc so they'll see lower numbers from the same stations because they can only charge at 60 amps. Because the LiveWire's max charge rate from 0-40% of the battery is 80 amps and these stations can only output 60, it will take a LiveWire an hour and 11 minutes to charge to full at one of these stations. Which I have personally tested and documented. It'll do the flat hour at a regular 50kW station aka 100 Amp output.

But these ones are 60 Amps.

OIC, so  Energicas and LWs won't get above 15 KW out of them, but other vehicles that have a higher battery voltage perhaps get the full 24 KWs out of them. Perhaps they say 24KW instead of 25 because of the voltage drop under load.


BTW, I have charged mu SS9- at  that Livermore H-D that you linked to. My check-in there was on May 13, 2021 and even there I said I got 15KW max.


So 15KW is all we can expect from the HD type of chargers on our bikes.  Sounds like they are more designed for CCS cars than for motorcycles.


Thanks for the info.




-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Demoni]

So 15KW is all we can expect from the HD type of chargers on our bikes.  Sounds like they are more designed for CCS cars than for motorcycles.

This is not a limitation of the vehicle but a limitation of the DC chargers installed at HD dealerships.
I suspect that Harley laid out the requirements of the CCS units HD dealerships had to install.
Since the Livewire has a rated max DC charge rate of 15kWh, I can not see a reason HD dealerships would pay for infrastructure that exceeded that charge rate.
Alternatively it is possible the limit the max charge rate of a CCS station.

[MVetter]

This is not a limitation of the vehicle but a limitation of the DC chargers installed at HD dealerships.
I suspect that Harley laid out the requirements of the CCS units HD dealerships had to install.
Since the Livewire has a rated max DC charge rate of 15kWh, I can not see a reason HD dealerships would pay for infrastructure that exceeded that charge rate.

Actually the LiveWire will do a max of 21kW at the bottom end of its charge cycle. It *will* pull 80 Amps from like 0-40%. After that it spends most of its time at 60 Amps until the mid 70s or so, then it drops to 40 Amps. When all this is done on a 100 Amp station the bike will fully charge in 1 hour. However when it's done on one of the H-D branded IES KeyWatt ones they're missing that additional 20 Amps on the bottom end of the charge cycle which results in it taking an hour and 11 minutes.

[DonTom]

What is the max charging watts on our Energicas on any CCS charger? 


BTW, I wonder why amps are often used instead of watts. Then we have to know the voltage, unlike with watts.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[MVetter]

The max amp request for modern Energicas is 75 Amps. The Watt value will fluctuate with a fixed Amp value as Voltage rises. As the bike ranges from 280-330vdc (approximately) you'll see a slightly higher value compared to when it was empty. Examples:

- Empty bike 280vdc x 75A = 21000W aka 21kW

- 50% bike 300vdc x 75A = 22500W aka 22.5kW

- 80% bike 320vdc x 75A = 24000W aka 24kW

[giacomo]

I think because "current" is the limiting factor in "power distribution". Watts per se do not fry a cable .... but AMPs do:

100KW = 100KV x 1A = OK

1W = 0.01V x 100A = not good

Giacomo

   

[DonTom]

I think because "current" is the limiting factor in "power distribution". Watts per se do not fry a cable .... but AMPs do:

100KW = 100KV x 1A = OK

1W = 0.01V x 100A = not good

Giacomo

 

That's a good point that I have not thought about before.


But watts are easier to figure out, such as it takes about an hour (not counting heat loses) to charge a 20KWH battery at a steady 20KW.  We can get a rough idea how long a charge will take if they use wattages on both the charge station as well as on the vehicle. Charging a 22KWH battery, at 32 amps isn't so simple to figure out.  Especially when most of us don't even know the battery voltage.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DonTom]

The max amp request for modern Energicas is 75 Amps. The Watt value will fluctuate with a fixed Amp value as Voltage rises. As the bike ranges from 280-330vdc (approximately) you'll see a slightly higher value compared to when it was empty. Examples:

- Empty bike 280vdc x 75A = 21000W aka 21kW

- 50% bike 300vdc x 75A = 22500W aka 22.5kW

- 80% bike 320vdc x 75A = 24000W aka 24kW

Is 24 KW  the most our Energicas will accept?  i thought I have seen a bit higher.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[staples]

But watts are easier to figure out, such as it takes about an hour (not counting heat loses) to charge a 20KWH battery at a steady 20KW.  We can get a rough idea how long a charge will take if they use wattages on both the charge station as well as on the vehicle. Charging a 22KWH battery, at 32 amps isn't so simple to figure out.  Especially when most of us don't even know the battery voltage.

You could just as easily talk about the A-h of the battery instead of kWh.

[DonTom]

You could just as easily talk about the A-h of the battery instead of kWh.

Sure, but it is the inconstancy that I have an issue with. Why rate the batteries in KWH but the charge stations in amps?  More common on J-1772 and home charging than CCS.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[PWM]

Why rate the batteries in KWH but the charge stations in amps?

-Don-  Auburn, CA

Because KWh describes working capacity for an EV whereas charge stations supply constant current limited (in most cases) by the EV being charged?

[DonTom]

Because KWh describes working capacity for an EV whereas charge stations supply constant current limited (in most cases) by the EV being charged?

I am not sure of the reason for amps,  but it often means I have to do a little math when I charge my 2017 Zero SR at below 8KW using external chargers to J-1772. No pilot signal used, so I have to adjust my charging manually unless the machine can do at least 33.33 amps or more (240VAC times 33.33=8KW). At least that is an easy number to remember.



I can charge my Zero SR at any of the following rates (as required):
1.3 KW
3.3 KW
4.6 KW
6.6 KW
7.9 KW

I know  I am in the wrong section for Zeros! But . . .

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DonTom]

Okay, I will get back on subject here!


I noticed here they show the bike fully loaded. And there is says "starting from $25,880.00."  So what price  does it end at?

When we go to pre-order, it shows it stripped down as shown here.

So what do we get for $25,880.00?

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[MVetter]

We won't officially know until they show the non-Launch Edition. I suspect they'll knock a couple grand off.