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[JaimeC]

[JaimeC]

He already has a follow-up video:

[Richard230]

My son-in-law, who loves to fix broken things and has helped me a couple of times to replace parts on my Zero, had these comments after he watched those two videos posted above: He makes it sound like the right-to-repair wars are a new thing but they have been around for decades.  Car manufacturers have been proposing to "weld the hood shut" for a long time now, and there are other strategies they have employed to make their cars hard to fix outside of the dealership.  That said, the modern age with miniaturized electronics and complex software makes it easier than ever for manufacturers to turn their products into black boxes.

[JaimeC]

I know.  The most "famous" Right-to-Repair cases I've heard about involve John Deere.  For decades farmers have been repairing their own equipment, but John Deere has been locking them out of that for a long time now.  I know there have been cases brought up because most family farmers can't afford to keep bringing broken down farming equipment to a dealership.  It is a very troubling trend for sure.

[Skidz]

People should vote with their wallets, but by doing so you won’t have the latest Android/iPhone/Tesla/Zero/Energica. There are no real alternatives (yet?).

[JaimeC]

Well for Android there IS an alternative but so far not in the US.  I keep bugging them to start selling them here.  Maybe if more voices chimed in?

https://www.fairphone.com/en/

[HoodRichOG]

There's a bill in the CA legislature to address this issue but it probably won't pass:  https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220SB983

I think this is universal across all EV manufacturers - they are putting short-term profits above all else in order to raise more cash and survive and make their programs profitable. Zero isn't really the exception here.

It's a huge turn-off for me and others as well. Considering how simple these bikes are, doing any sort of repairs yourself is not easy. Most people don't want to pay $20K+ for something that becomes e-waste in a matter of years.

[Auriga]

I don't think that bill or similar passing will fix the fundamental longevity issue.It definitely should though.

The biggest constraints on that are the cost of the battery and motor. As long as a new battery costs 6k, most people aren't going to keep bikes running when that dies in 5-8 years. Usually it's not the few hundred dollars in service fees.

To bring EVs on par with ICE vehicles of old, you'd probably have to require that all the ecu interfaces are documented. Not just pinouts. but the CAN packets/voltage levels/etc. Dealers don't have that info. Then there's a decent chance a manufacturer could provide an alternative abattery/bms. The days of the 2010/2011 where you connect the +/- leads and a few 5V signal wire are long gone.

If this bill passed, and Zero provided the dealer software, would you plunk down 500-1000 dollars for the CAN/Serial harness?

[fredx]

My 2020 SR/F has been in the dealer's service department for over 5 weeks now.  Zero has been slow to respond to each contact from the dealer (often a week to simply get a response), to the point where the dealer's service manager has been actively encouraging me to contact Zero directly myself.  I finally got downright aggressive with them yesterday.  As a result, the issue was escalated to Zero's director level, and now the correct part has been shipped overnight (they sent the wrong part the first time).  In theory, I might get my bike back next week, a month and a half after I brought it in for a simple "the bike won't charge" issue.

I'm technologically proficient, but I can't get a manufacturer service manual for the bike.  Zero is unresponsive to their own dealers, let alone the owners who purchase these premium bikes.  As a result, it is *IMPOSSIBLE* to repair this bike in any efficient manner.

I've been riding for nearly 50 years, and have never, ever experienced anything like this.

I sure enjoy riding this bike, but Zero is horrible.  As soon as Yamaha sells electric motorcycles, I'm gone!

 - Fred

[rgutt]

I don't think that bill or similar passing will fix the fundamental longevity issue.It definitely should though.

The biggest constraints on that are the cost of the battery and motor. As long as a new battery costs 6k, most people aren't going to keep bikes running when that dies in 5-8 years. Usually it's not the few hundred dollars in service fees.

To bring EVs on par with ICE vehicles of old, you'd probably have to require that all the ecu interfaces are documented. Not just pinouts. but the CAN packets/voltage levels/etc. Dealers don't have that info. Then there's a decent chance a manufacturer could provide an alternative abattery/bms. The days of the 2010/2011 where you connect the +/- leads and a few 5V signal wire are long gone.

If this bill passed, and Zero provided the dealer software, would you plunk down 500-1000 dollars for the CAN/Serial harness?

At least for those of us with pre-2022 SRs and lower that use the Sevcon motor controllers, that's exactly what we did when we purchased the IXXAT cable. If the MBB or BMS ever die, rather than relying on Zero for replacements, those units can be gutted from the bike and their responsibilities programmed into Sevcon. One would likely replace the BMS with an aftermarket unit because the Sevcon isn't a BMS, but it can handle the contactor and voltage cutbacks. I suspect even the newer controllers are programmable by end-users if you can get your hands on the software. That said, for a $20k bike, I wouldn't want to have to do that out the gate.

[Auriga]

At least for those of us with pre-2022 SRs and lower that use the Sevcon motor controllers, that's exactly what we did when we purchased the IXXAT cable. If the MBB or BMS ever die, rather than relying on Zero for replacements, those units can be gutted from the bike and their responsibilities programmed into Sevcon. One would likely replace the BMS with an aftermarket unit because the Sevcon isn't a BMS, but it can handle the contactor and voltage cutbacks. I suspect even the newer controllers are programmable by end-users if you can get your hands on the software. That said, for a $20k bike, I wouldn't want to have to do that out the gate.

Has anyone actually succeeded doing that? I saw some talk of it, but don't recall seeing a successful attempt. But you raise a good point, if you gut and replace all the computers, that would work. But I'm not sure that counts as them being repairable. And you can do that now!

[NHRstein]

If this bill passed, and Zero provided the dealer software, would you plunk down 500-1000 dollars for the CAN/Serial harness?

I wouldn't hesitate, put my order in tomorrow.

[slant911]

My 2020 SR/F has been in the dealer's service department for over 5 weeks now.  Zero has been slow to respond to each contact from the dealer (often a week to simply get a response), to the point where the dealer's service manager has been actively encouraging me to contact Zero directly myself.  I finally got downright aggressive with them yesterday.  As a result, the issue was escalated to Zero's director level, and now the correct part has been shipped overnight (they sent the wrong part the first time).  In theory, I might get my bike back next week, a month and a half after I brought it in for a simple "the bike won't charge" issue.

I'm technologically proficient, but I can't get a manufacturer service manual for the bike.  Zero is unresponsive to their own dealers, let alone the owners who purchase these premium bikes.  As a result, it is *IMPOSSIBLE* to repair this bike in any efficient manner.

I've been riding for nearly 50 years, and have never, ever experienced anything like this.

I sure enjoy riding this bike, but Zero is horrible.  As soon as Yamaha sells electric motorcycles, I'm gone!

 - Fred

So my no charge issue happened after about 3 months of ownership and was at the shop almost 7 weeks for repair.  Loved the bike for the first 3 months then once this debacle took place I do not really trust the bike anymore and find myself riding it less and less.  I am with you...Once big manufacturers start making electric bikes I am on it. 

[princec]

Well, BMW's new scoot looks awesome...

Cas

[JaimeC]

Based on my own personal experience with the "new BMW", if they were the last motor vehicle manufacturer on Earth, I'd buy a HORSE.