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[DonTom]

that the Energica seems to have better build quality and engineering when compared with the Zero.

I like to check for the small stuff to figure out the quality.

It seems to me that all the electric  motorcycles are very well built. How often do you find stainless steel brake front brake lines on an ICE bike? My Zero has SS, doesn't yours?  Also, metal tire valves.

My $40,000 Harley has cheap  rubber for both.  And both can cause problems.  Rubber brake lines can swell losing braking power when they age and rubber valve stems can get people killed and should have been made illegal before they were put on ANY motorized vehicle. Perhaps okay on a bicycle, at best.


IMO, because the batteries are so expensive, they don't want to use cheap junk for the rest of the bike.


What is it that looks low quality to you on a Zero?

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[sharagan]

the wheels for example, the fairings, the motor bearings, the 80V DC-DC converter and the overall built quality.

Take a look at the thread that I posted some time ago, named "Zero FXS in "perfect" condition"

[T.S. Zarathustra]

Quality is relative. Just because something says Stainless Steel does not have to mean it's good quality. Having speedometer that shows 300 km/h in my bike does not make it a sportsbike, or fast. Si mi abuela tuviera ruedas seria una bicicleta.

Few months ago I was at a nearby motorcycle dealer, drinking coffee and chatting with a salesman about electric bikes (they have 5 Zeros standing on a mezzanine floor above the shop). He echoed the "low quality" statement and said he wouldn't like to sell anyone a Zero. Software and support on top of hardware issues. Pay to unlock features was also mentioned. He wasn't terribly impressed with Energica either. Advised me to wait until the Japanese four get in the game.

[DonTom]

He echoed the "low quality"

Did he give any examples of the "low quality" ?  I cannot say I have found such with Zero or Energica. But I can find a lot of what I would call  "low quality" on my Tesla.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DonTom]

Quality is relative. Just because something says Stainless Steel does not have to mean it's good quality.

Sure, but most often we can tell just by looking.   Besides, any SS brake lines are MUCH better than the  very best rubber brake lines, IMO. Same with the tire valve stems. My 40K$ Harley is built cheap. I cannot say the same for Zero just by looking at it.  Even my Tesla is built cheap in some areas. Use two hands (often very inconvenient) to close the frunk or it will bend. Don't use the latch to open the doors as it will destroy the window trim. I could go on all day with this type of stuff that I consider "cheaply made". 


FWIW, The Harley LW looked very high quality to me, but for 30K$, it should be.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[princec]

Now I do love my Zero but I'm painfully aware that it doesn't remotely feel like a 20 grand bike in a lot of areas. The switchgear is super-cheap generic stuff fitted to several other cheap bikes. Some of the plastics fit with peculiar panel gaps and angles rather than flush. The chainguard plastic is treacherously sharp. The wheels are like boat anchors, and the swingarm might actually be a boat anchor, and it also rusts easily in the bobbin screwholes. The suspension isn't too bad but most other bikes costing 20k have semi-active nowadays. In fact bikes costing just 16k have semi-active suspension (new Triumph!). The brakes aren't Brembos. The dash is tiny and low-res and slow, it's filled with steam and condensation and there's no point replacing it because a new one will do exactly the same thing, and the software and firmware are farcically bugridden. The paint's worn off my brake lever where I squeeze it with my finger, and the aluminium bar ends have worn into a fine silver powder coating the ends of both handlebars where my hands rest. There's still no belt drive protection.

I don't think it's particularly flimsy or anything though - the chassis looks like it'll last a lifetime no problem. But the rest of it will most likely long since go bang. The electronics and charging units especially seem prone to total random failure and they'll be the hardest parts to replace because only Zero know how to make them. That, right there, is the Achilles heel of all of these modern new bikes - electronics.

Cas

[DonTom]

Now I do love my Zero but I'm painfully aware that it doesn't remotely feel like a 20 grand bike in a lot of areas. The switchgear is super-cheap generic stuff fitted to several other cheap bikes. Some of the plastics fit with peculiar panel gaps and angles rather than flush. The chainguard plastic is treacherously sharp. The wheels are like boat anchors, and the swingarm might actually be a boat anchor, and it also rusts easily in the bobbin screwholes. The suspension isn't too bad but most other bikes costing 20k have semi-active nowadays. In fact bikes costing just 16k have semi-active suspension (new Triumph!). The brakes aren't Brembos. The dash is tiny and low-res and slow, it's filled with steam and condensation and there's no point replacing it because a new one will do exactly the same thing, and the software and firmware are farcically bugridden. The paint's worn off my brake lever where I squeeze it with my finger, and the aluminium bar ends have worn into a fine silver powder coating the ends of both handlebars where my hands rest. There's still no belt drive protection.

I don't think it's particularly flimsy or anything though - the chassis looks like it'll last a lifetime no problem. But the rest of it will most likely long since go bang. The electronics and charging units especially seem prone to total random failure and they'll be the hardest parts to replace because only Zero know how to make them. That, right there, is the Achilles heel of all of these modern new bikes - electronics.

Cas

In some cases, the plastic is to help keep the weight down. They ask a lot form the small 1.4 KW uncooled OB charger. But is there a better answer? Not having it at all and using an external Delta-Q  charger is one answer, but not a good one.  Just about any electronics is random failures, but the charger has more issues, such as heat to deal with in a small light package.  BTW, using the OBC with only 240 VAC could increase the life of the OBC. It is more  efficient at 240 VAC which means less heat. I only charge with 240 VAC.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[princec]

Fortunately we only have 250VAC here in the UK Also fortunately the SR/F has whopping great fans cooling the chargers.

Cas

[wavelet]

What started my thinking of this thread subject is that the Energica bikes seemed to me to have the best chassis and build quality of the three current most popular freeway-legal electric motorcycle models on the market in the U.S. Although I honestly don't know much about the quality of the LiveWire, but i am pretty sure that the Energica seems to have better build quality and engineering when compared with the Zero. To me it would be a shame should you have to retire your Energica if its batteries didn't last as long as the chassis components and couldn't be replaced at a reasonable cost.

It's a pretty safe bet that with only a low-4-digits number of e-motorcycles of any given make sold per year globally (at best), it's not going to be worth anyone's while to have any commercial replacement programs.
Some people will do it just for the hell of it, but it'll be more expensive than a new bike. Somewhat similar to how EV conversions of old cars aren't cost-effective, once you take in account the cost of the labor and the fact that  you get a car which still has far inferior safety and non-drivetrain subsystems than a modern EV.

Zero are going to have to move to high-voltage batteries pretty soon anyway, to support CCS DC fast charging (if they don't they'll be stuck with commuting and unable to grow their market); once they do that, IMHO the older 100V battery system is going to be orphaned anyway.

Energica already only warranty their batteries for 3 years / 50K km, which is quite low (and for me is a sufficient reason not to buy one).

[DonTom]

Zero are going to have to move to high-voltage batteries pretty soon anyway, to support CCS DC fast charging (if they don't they'll be stuck with commuting and unable to grow their market); once they do that, IMHO the older 100V battery system is going to be orphaned anyway.

Energica already only warranty their batteries for 3 years / 50K km, which is quite low (and for me is a sufficient reason not to buy one).

Expect Zero to do the same if they are going to have their CCS batteries charge at 25KW.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[NEW2elec]

Now I do love my Zero but I'm painfully aware that it doesn't remotely feel like a 20 grand bike in a lot of areas. The switchgear is super-cheap generic stuff fitted to several other cheap bikes. Some of the plastics fit with peculiar panel gaps and angles rather than flush. The chainguard plastic is treacherously sharp. The wheels are like boat anchors, and the swingarm might actually be a boat anchor, and it also rusts easily in the bobbin screwholes. The suspension isn't too bad but most other bikes costing 20k have semi-active nowadays. In fact bikes costing just 16k have semi-active suspension (new Triumph!). The brakes aren't Brembos. The dash is tiny and low-res and slow, it's filled with steam and condensation and there's no point replacing it because a new one will do exactly the same thing, and the software and firmware are farcically bugridden. The paint's worn off my brake lever where I squeeze it with my finger, and the aluminium bar ends have worn into a fine silver powder coating the ends of both handlebars where my hands rest. There's still no belt drive protection.

I don't think it's particularly flimsy or anything though - the chassis looks like it'll last a lifetime no problem. But the rest of it will most likely long since go bang. The electronics and charging units especially seem prone to total random failure and they'll be the hardest parts to replace because only Zero know how to make them. That, right there, is the Achilles heel of all of these modern new bikes - electronics.

Cas

Cas not to single you out because I see this opinion more and more but you have to remember this is a new expensive drive-train and technology with a cheaper "motorcycle" around it.
Harley and BMW and the Japanese bikes paid for their engine R&D 20-30 years ago in some cases. Plus their economy of scale is something the electric crowd can only dream of.

[princec]

This is true but ... it doesn't help. I'm annoyed for example that the new SR/Fs out this year don't address a single one of the low-hanging fruit issues with the model I've got, despite several years in between. The plastics are still shonky, the belt drive hasn't changed one bit, the dash is still 10 year old LCD technology, the switchgear is still cheapass. I wonder exactly how they managed to spend 3 years in R&D and basically let Farasis do all the difficult work of squeezing another 10% into the cells while they did ... what exactly? Certainly nothing to make me want to buy another Zero yet...

Cas