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[NEW2elec]

I keep forgetting if I don't keep my points very short and focused I'll be blinded by gaslighting.

Hood which Energica do you have?

This is copied from the Energica website for an Ego:
RANGE: 420 km – 261 miles City / 246 km – 153 miles Combined / 198 km – 123 miles Extra Urban

I guess "Extra Urban" is highway?  Sounds like an super crowded city but hey, translations.

You getting those numbers?  I've not had anyone posting those numbers. 
So I guess Energica is just scamming everyone?

[MVetter]

He's got a Ribelle. And plenty of other owners get those numbers. Who would you like to talk to? Daren? Robert? Rick? Sabrina? James? Tony?

[HoodRichOG]

I'm not actually questioning the range, I'm just curious how Damon managed to fit that many cylindrical cells, cooling, and a plethora of electronics in such a lightweight package.

Even considering they use the motor as the stressed member of the frame, they must have accomplished quite the breakthrough in EV technology and energy density. I'm surprised they aren't really sharing any details about it.

[Fran K]

The video is post 1 is supposed to be a walk around of Damon"s second motorcycle model.  What do you think it is a prototype, pre production one, or some other description?  It is pretty obvious it is not a homologated ready to attach a license plate to.  Or is this a such a small number to be made that it does not have to have whatever DOT compliance one would expect.  I don't see mirrors or side reflectors.

I would like to hear it on that apparatus they had to run the rear wheel.  How much noise or how quiet?  Plenty of other stuff to discuss besides the battery.  Note the BMW CE 04 video posted on here calls out 8kwh useable.  We don't know if the 20kwh for Damon is useable or some other way like 4.0 volts per cell times amp hours.

 I am guessing the top speed is down from 200 mph to 170 mph perhaps due to the drag of being a street fighter than a racer look alike.  What do you think, will it be stable at 170mph?  I sure don't go that fast but it is my understanding the body work needs to go virtually to the rear wheel at the bottom of the bike or instability occurs.

I notice it seems there is a space perhaps 3/4 inch where you can see through the bike between the motor and battery compartment.  At least that is what I think the components are.

Miss GOElectric has other videos, I watched the one where she orders and pays for an electric big wheeled bicycle (pedal assist or no pedaling needed the way it sounds)  Too bad she did not do a feature on Cake that seems a lot closer to what she has for videos of actually using.

Just for discussion,  what is the likelyhood that a start up company can make a motorcycle where the swingarm and shock attach to stressed drive components and actually handle better than a frame that has been out for a while and likely has been adjusted a few times.

[MVetter]

I'm not actually questioning the range, I'm just curious how Damon managed to fit that many cylindrical cells, cooling, and a plethora of electronics in such a lightweight package.

Even considering they use the motor as the stressed member of the frame, they must have accomplished quite the breakthrough in EV technology and energy density. I'm surprised they aren't really sharing any details about it.

For that, one must only look at their press releases where they brag about their unprecedented and industry leading 200 Wh/kg pack density. I actually had a direct discussion with Jay on FaceBook before he left about this because Zero's cells were, at the time, 260 Wh/Kg. I brought this up with him and he said, "no they're not." and insisted he'd done independent testing.

I have engineer friends at Zero I trust who I confirmed the numbers with while not even mentioning why I was asking. They nonchalantly gave me the value of 260 Wh/Kg as it was no big secret. Now this was before Zero's new cells which are 330 Wh/Kg, those new big jump Farasis cells.

Then, in a discussion on RideApart during the Hyperfighter Colossus reveal, I made some comments on RideApart about this and Jay piped up again, doubling down by saying Damon's numbers were for full pack weight, not just raw cells. to which I responded:

Welp let's take their new 17.3kWh monolith. Having weighed short bricks I know they're ~18.5kg apiece. There are 4 of those, and that's PACK density not cell density. ~74kg. Hell, let's round it up to 75. So 17,300 / 75 = 230.67Wh/kg PACK density. The new packs are even lighter than that but I'm giving you all the benefits and you still fall far short.

Additionally you are using cylindrical cells, by your own admission 21700s. Those have a maximum stack efficiency of 65% if you are able to build an absolutely perfect pack. You've set yourself up for failure from the start.

Never heard a response. I would also be curious to know how he weighed his pack considering it's ... tied to the frame and the motor etc. There's no separate battery box.

[NEW2elec]

He's got a Ribelle. And plenty of other owners get those numbers. Who would you like to talk to? Daren? Robert? Rick? Sabrina? James? Tony?

Nope I'll just use this guy to make my point about real world aka not ideal conditions.

Go to 4:10 to see his miles for this test.  Go to 14:10 to see the 0-60 time on a drag gadget.  At 27:56 you see the miles remaining at 42 while at 65% SOC.  So about 78 miles total "spirited" riding but not a constant motorway speed.
From the Youtube channel Lamb Chop Rides:

[NEW2elec]

I'm not actually questioning the range, I'm just curious how Damon managed to fit that many cylindrical cells, cooling, and a plethora of electronics in such a lightweight package.

Even considering they use the motor as the stressed member of the frame, they must have accomplished quite the breakthrough in EV technology and energy density. I'm surprised they aren't really sharing any details about it.

I feel you are at least being half sarcastic since you feel it can't be done.  They wouldn't tell the world exactly how they do things no matter what.  But let me at least clear up one thing for you.
There is NO frame.

That is one of the big keys for there business model.  They can make a few different types of bikes off the one core unit.
Different seat setup different fork setup different lights and dash and you get a Sport bike, a Streetfighter, and likely an ADV or DS all with the same core.

Also just by removing cells you get a 1000CC 750cc or 600cc equivalent models to sell at lower price points.

[NEW2elec]

The video is post 1 is supposed to be a walk around of Damon"s second motorcycle model.  What do you think it is a prototype, pre production one, or some other description?  It is pretty obvious it is not a homologated ready to attach a license plate to.  Or is this a such a small number to be made that it does not have to have whatever DOT compliance one would expect.  I don't see mirrors or side reflectors.

I would like to hear it on that apparatus they had to run the rear wheel.  How much noise or how quiet?  Plenty of other stuff to discuss besides the battery.  Note the BMW CE 04 video posted on here calls out 8kwh useable.  We don't know if the 20kwh for Damon is useable or some other way like 4.0 volts per cell times amp hours.

 I am guessing the top speed is down from 200 mph to 170 mph perhaps due to the drag of being a street fighter than a racer look alike.  What do you think, will it be stable at 170mph?  I sure don't go that fast but it is my understanding the body work needs to go virtually to the rear wheel at the bottom of the bike or instability occurs.

I notice it seems there is a space perhaps 3/4 inch where you can see through the bike between the motor and battery compartment.  At least that is what I think the components are.

Miss GOElectric has other videos, I watched the one where she orders and pays for an electric big wheeled bicycle (pedal assist or no pedaling needed the way it sounds)  Too bad she did not do a feature on Cake that seems a lot closer to what she has for videos of actually using.

Just for discussion,  what is the likelyhood that a start up company can make a motorcycle where the swing arm and shock attach to stressed drive components and actually handle better than a frame that has been out for a while and likely has been adjusted a few times.

Just for you because I had to dig to find it .  There is music in the background but you get an idea.
From the Yotube channel Electric Vehicles Space.

[HoodRichOG]

I'm not actually questioning the range, I'm just curious how Damon managed to fit that many cylindrical cells, cooling, and a plethora of electronics in such a lightweight package.

Even considering they use the motor as the stressed member of the frame, they must have accomplished quite the breakthrough in EV technology and energy density. I'm surprised they aren't really sharing any details about it.

I feel you are at least being half sarcastic since you feel it can't be done.  They wouldn't tell the world exactly how they do things no matter what.  But let me at least clear up one thing for you.
There is NO frame.

That is one of the big keys for there business model.  They can make a few different types of bikes off the one core unit.
Different seat setup different fork setup different lights and dash and you get a Sport bike, a Streetfighter, and likely an ADV or DS all with the same core.

Also just by removing cells you get a 1000CC 750cc or 600cc equivalent models to sell at lower price points.

Most EV manufacturers are very open about how their engineering works. Tesla even has a battery day where they go in depth abo how their pack is engineered, the chemistry etc. GM did same thing with Ultium.

This is the kind of stuff that sells cars, which is why manufacturers do it.

[MVetter]

aahahahhahHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA OH MY GOD

iT'S WiNtEr aNd nO OnE Is sHoWiNg mAxImUm rAnGe iN ThE CoLd cHeCkMaTe aThEiStS

are you for real. Please please please say yes

[NEW2elec]

You have been clear that you don't think Damon can do what they say and nothing short of the bike on the road doing all those things will change that idea in your head.

When the bikes come out maybe you'll be right.  Maybe I'll be right.  Maybe they hit on some goals and miss on others.

By the end of this year if:  We aren't in WW3.  The world economy hasn't collapsed .  We don't have super Covid.
Then Damon bikes should be in the market.  So we'll have to wait to see who was right.

[MVetter]

What exactly is this?

meme

[NEW2elec]

Ok I saw the YT video.

Kind of funny.

Thought you took a strange left turn there.  Comment removed.
Sorry.

[wavelet]

I'm not actually questioning the range, I'm just curious how Damon managed to fit that many cylindrical cells, cooling, and a plethora of electronics in such a lightweight package.

Even considering they use the motor as the stressed member of the frame, they must have accomplished quite the breakthrough in EV technology and energy density. I'm surprised they aren't really sharing any details about it.

I feel you are at least being half sarcastic since you feel it can't be done.  They wouldn't tell the world exactly how they do things no matter what.  But let me at least clear up one thing for you.
There is NO frame.

That is one of the big keys for there business model.  They can make a few different types of bikes off the one core unit.
Different seat setup different fork setup different lights and dash and you get a Sport bike, a Streetfighter, and likely an ADV or DS all with the same core.

Also just by removing cells you get a 1000CC 750cc or 600cc equivalent models to sell at lower price points.

You can't be serious.
No such thing as a frame-less bike. Period.
The various parts have to be attached to something, and something has to bear the total weight under various stress, acceleration & deceleration scenarios. That's basic physics (specifically, Newtonian mechanics).
No of course, there are lots of frame variants for motorcycles beyond the traditional passive types; many if not most manufacturers have at various times made the frame multi-purpose: Most modern ICEV bike designs use the engine as a stressed member, so it's part of the frame. Early Triumphs, Buell and IIRC the BMW F650 singles used frame tubes as an oil tank to save weight and space (a.k.a. "oil in frame"). Plenty of designs use the frame as the external bodywork (e.g., the original Vespa scooter.) And so on.

As for "They can make a few different types of bikes off the one core unit", every single motorcycle manufacturer does that. Almost none use any frame design just for a single model -- it's too expensive. Just like the same engine is used on multiple models, or the identical BEV drivetrain on multiple car models.
All Energicas have an identical frame.

[princec]

I'd disagree about the notion of there being no such thing as a frameless motorcycle. At the very least the BMW Telelever boxer bikes use the engine as the "frame". There are subframes attached to the front and rear to hang things on but that's all.
Frameless design is pretty much a certainty and I'd say even a necessity for EV motorcycles to ultimately compete with ICE to get the pack large enough and light enough.

Cas