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[waynebhayes]

Folks,

So far, I've owned a Zero S (2019), a Zero SR (2021), an SR/F (2020), and now I have an SR/S (2021).

About the only significant difference between the S and SR, I think, is that the S has a 7.2kWh battery, and the SR has a 14.4kWh. According to the current Zero website, the S weighs 313 lbs, the SR weighs 414---a difference of 101 lbs.

I have not been able to find a definitive answer anywhere as to the weight of a naked 14.4kWh battery, but from the above let's say a ballpark estimate is 200 lbs (101 lbs per 7.2 kWh).

The SR/S and SR/F both weigh about 500 lbs, give or take. So, adding a second 14.4kWh battery would take it up to about 700 lbs... which is about the same weight as a BMW K 1600 GS---which is also a physically huge bike, so there would be no problem making a Zero physically bigger to accommodate the battery space.

As another comparison, the Honda Gold Wing clocks in at about 800 lbs. Also huge and heavy---but well-balanced, just like the BMW. The Gold Wing has a 5.5Gal tank and gets about 42mpg -- giving a range of 230 miles.

So... why the heck doesn't Zero just make a touring bike that has 28.8kWh of battery, weighs 700 lbs, and has a range of over 300 miles in the city, 200 miles at 55mph, and 160 miles at 70mph?  Heck, add another 7.2kWh and we're at 36kWh, about 800 lbs (like a Gold Wing), and the range will be 200 miles even at 70mph.

So we could strike at the ballpark of a Gold Wing with the same weight and same range.

I for one would jump at the opportunity to have a comfortable touring Zero with a range of 200 miles. And it's do-able right now---at least in principle.

Why haven't they done this? Is it on their radar at all?

[NEW2elec]

Well at least one guy threw a second full battery pack sideways where the "tank" goes so yes it can be done.  Not really safely but it can be done.

The Energica + bikes have a 21kWh pack.
I can't help but point out that Damon is claiming 300 city miles with their HyperSport bike.  They aren't in production at this time.

I do agree the smooth great ride of electric is ideal for touring, they still need much faster charging and more over all charging stations.

They will happen but it will take a while yet.

[Crissa]

When you make a physically larger bike, all the stuff that makes it physically larger weighs more.

-Crissa

[mdjak1]

1) cost - Maybe $40-45k?
2) charge time - Maybe 30 minutes at a suitable DCFC station but multiple hours at level 2
3) the market for such a bike would probably be very small

[wavelet]

Folks,

So far, I've owned a Zero S (2019), a Zero SR (2021), an SR/F (2020), and now I have an SR/S (2021).

About the only significant difference between the S and SR, I think, is that the S has a 7.2kWh battery, and the SR has a 14.4kWh. According to the current Zero website, the S weighs 313 lbs, the SR weighs 414---a difference of 101 lbs.

I have not been able to find a definitive answer anywhere as to the weight of a naked 14.4kWh battery, but from the above let's say a ballpark estimate is 200 lbs (101 lbs per 7.2 kWh).

The SR/S and SR/F both weigh about 500 lbs, give or take. So, adding a second 14.4kWh battery would take it up to about 700 lbs... which is about the same weight as a BMW K 1600 GS---which is also a physically huge bike, so there would be no problem making a Zero physically bigger to accommodate the battery space.

As another comparison, the Honda Gold Wing clocks in at about 800 lbs. Also huge and heavy---but well-balanced, just like the BMW. The Gold Wing has a 5.5Gal tank and gets about 42mpg -- giving a range of 230 miles.

So... why the heck doesn't Zero just make a touring bike that has 28.8kWh of battery, weighs 700 lbs, and has a range of over 300 miles in the city, 200 miles at 55mph, and 160 miles at 70mph?  Heck, add another 7.2kWh and we're at 36kWh, about 800 lbs (like a Gold Wing), and the range will be 200 miles even at 70mph.

So we could strike at the ballpark of a Gold Wing with the same weight and same range.

I for one would jump at the opportunity to have a comfortable touring Zero with a range of 200 miles. And it's do-able right now---at least in principle.

Why haven't they done this? Is it on their radar at all?

First, the bike's chassis would have to be able to safely carry, accelerate, brake and handle (suspension+steering) all that weight.  That means a stronger, heavier & more expensive frame and other components.
That said, the SR/S-SR/F platform is a step in that direction: Its GVWR is significantly higher than the S & SR bikes.

The Goldwing, BTW, is a really bad example: It's functional payload is tiny because all the carrying capacity is devoted to dragging along the bike itself -- in fact, it's completely unsuited for purpose.
Its entire payload (2021 model) is 423 lbs; two average US residents weigh 369 lbs (average of male & female times 2) -- and that's without any clothes or riding gear. Add ~10 lbs/person for that, and you have ~30-35 lbs left for bike accessories, tools and any cargo whatsoever... Not exactly a lot for camping or any kind of touring for two people.
Virtually every Goldwing owner riding 2-up is exceeding the legal limit.

Not sure of the repercussions in various US, but over here, that may cause your insurance to be invalidated if you're involved in an accident, which is big deal.

[Richard230]

I think Zero's marketing goal is to make a greater penetration into the mid-range motorcycle market and especially to attract current ICE riders to electric. Going big and expensive as a few specialty builders have done is not going to meet their marketing goals. They are looking for volume sales and going "double or nothing" would likely result in sales heading more toward nothing.    What Zero seems to be doing is attempting to provide solid 800cc-class performance with prices dropping toward 800cc-class prices. Doubling up on the current battery pack size is not going to pencil-out for them or attract more customers.

What is really needed is new battery technology and that will come around someday. Only then will you see a touring/cruising Zero model. (IMHO)

[mdjak1]

What is really needed is new battery technology and that will come around someday. Only then will you see a touring/cruising Zero model. (IMHO)

Someday battery technology will give us electric motorcycles that are lighter than ICE bike, have more range than any rider wants for a single ride, and recharge as fast as it takes to refuel ICE bikes.  I hope I am around and still able to ride when they do.

[JaimeC]

I think Zero's marketing goal is to make a greater penetration into the mid-range motorcycle market and especially to attract current ICE riders to electric. Going big and expensive as a few specialty builders have done is not going to meet their marketing goals. They are looking for volume sales and going "double or nothing" would likely result in sales heading more toward nothing.    What Zero seems to be doing is attempting to provide solid 800cc-class performance with prices dropping toward 800cc-class prices. Doubling up on the current battery pack size is not going to pencil-out for them or attract more customers.

What is really needed is new battery technology and that will come around someday. Only then will you see a touring/cruising Zero model. (IMHO)

I agree.  Right now as far as I'm concerned, Zero is the only manufacturer making practical, affordable, highway-capable motorcycles for REASONABLE prices.  The market is saturated with low-end bikes that are great for toodling around urban environments but not suitable for highway use and ultra-expensive boutique bikes whose sole purpose seems to be "Look what we can build!"

[victor6.7y]

I think the biggest technical challenge would be that zero will either redesign ther powertrain or their charging.
If not we will end up with a charge time of 20 hours.

[princec]

Lots of radically different chemistries on the horizon eg. lithium-sulphur, and radically different designs eg. solid-state. - quite likely we'll see a doubling in power density for the same weight within the next decade or so and the problem will gradually solve itself.

Zero's quite rightly focused on replacing bikes for 80% of the people 80% of the time to fund the fastest growth they can cope with. I think they'll be sticking with their current low-voltage motor and circuitry design for the next 5-10 years while they work on incremental pack upgrades (probably an 168h pack coming next few years with the latest Farasis cells), and they'll be focusing on trying to keep the cost level and boost "features" hopefully such as more and better on-board AC charging capability as they can't easily switch to higher voltage.

In the meantime we're stuck with 100 mile range and 12kW charging as state-of-the-art and while it's good enough for 80% of us 80% of the time, they need to double at least one of those numbers to make it good enough 80/90 and double again to get to 90/90. It'll get there... just not soon.

Cas

[Crissa]

A Zero covers far more than 80% of riding.  The problem is, since bikes are seen as aspirational instead of tools, that's not good enough for many b buys.  Bery few ride for more than an hour or two at a time.

But they aspire to these big weekend rides.  Not what bikes are really good at, which is getting across the county for errands taking the long way and filtering through traffic to get there quickly.

-Crissa

[Richtea]

1) cost - Maybe $40-45k?
2) charge time - Maybe 30 minutes at a suitable DCFC station but multiple hours at level 2
3) the market for such a bike would probably be very small

3) the market for such a bike would probably be very small

I disagree. I think that market may be smaller than say for electric commuters, but the people who do high miles will be happy to pay extra for it - which makes that market significant. Look at the sales of expensive adventure bikes for example. Electric adventure bikes with long range capabilities will sell like hot cakes, but they don't exist yet.

I won't be buying electric until I can get either:
1. half day's (100 miles) recharge in say 10-15 mins, or
2. 200 miles range

Both are getting close - maybe another two years.

(No 1 isn't because I only stop for 10-15 min at lunchtime, it's because if everyone in your riding group needs to charge, you can't ALL hog the charger for an hour each.)

[Crissa]

That sounds more like you need more chargers than faster charging.

-Crissa

[T.S. Zarathustra]

I suggested somewhere that about the only electrical bike that makes sense for acute sufferers of range anxiety would be a GoldWing style bike. Purposefully built heavy duty tourer like that should in theory be able to effortlessly take you 1000 km in a day, then recharge overnight. It would weigh a ton, and handle like a wet rag, but you'd have that range. And GoldWing buyers are generally not really worried about few thousand extra bucks for the extra range. Another plus would be how difficult it would be to steal.
I'm heading in the other direction, smaller and lighter, might even go for a SuperCub, but this might be valid option for some others.

[victor6.7y]

In general I really like my bike. I use it instead of a car. In the Netherlands the distance between places issn't really big.

Is this a bike to compair with a ICE bike? not in my opinion.
But I do think it is a perfect solution to use to travel to work. Charge at home or at work; and go back and forth.