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[2020_SRS_Commuter]

On my SRS, I usually lose regen on the way home. This is in Florida so even at night the temp may be in 80F. Almost every night it happens.

The battery temp display is in the middle of its range when I turn the bike on. I ride 50-70 MPH 10 minutes to a superslab highway, where I then ride 100-115MPH for about 10 minutes. The batter temp is rising the whole time. By the time I hit the highway exit the battery temp is at the top of its range, but has not turned red. The regen is off and I have to use full brakes to stop there. In the slower backroads for the remainder of the trip home, the regen is usually restored by the time I get to the house.

On the way TO work in the mid day when its 90-100F , I rarely lose regen because the traffic does not permit going above 90MPH for extended periods. It used to happen a lot when I first got the bike because I was flying around everyone like an electrical God of the road. I was overheating the motor a lot too in those days. Even put a fan on it. Finally I calmed down.

[DonTom]

Even a slight overcharge would cause a permanently decreased discharge capacity for that cell. If it lasts too long, the cell will pressurize/catch fire/explode. And the effects are cumulative.
 The other thing to note is that batteries involve chemical processes. Dumping power into it will cause the voltage to overshoot the target for a brief time, and the reverse is true when you draw a big load. Further, overcharging  causes irreversible negative chemical reactions like overgassing and the formation of lithium metal on the anode, and could lead to thermal runaway.


To protect against that, if any cell exceeds the upper safety limit, it'll cause the bike to open its contactor and quit while running.

Would not recommend.

But I am not asking about exceeding the max capacity, only the nominal capacity  which is probably arbitrary  anyway. Why even bother to rate batteries in max capacity if it cannot be used in any possible way for anything without damage?  Why doesn't  capacity mean capacity when it comes to batteries? If max capacity doesn't mean max capacity with batteries, what does it mean?


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Auriga]

Even a slight overcharge would cause a permanently decreased discharge capacity for that cell. If it lasts too long, the cell will pressurize/catch fire/explode. And the effects are cumulative.
 The other thing to note is that batteries involve chemical processes. Dumping power into it will cause the voltage to overshoot the target for a brief time, and the reverse is true when you draw a big load. Further, overcharging  causes irreversible negative chemical reactions like overgassing and the formation of lithium metal on the anode, and could lead to thermal runaway.


To protect against that, if any cell exceeds the upper safety limit, it'll cause the bike to open its contactor and quit while running.

Would not recommend.

But I am not asking about exceeding the max capacity, only the nominal capacity  which is probably arbitrary  anyway. Why even bother to rate batteries in max capacity if it cannot be used in any possible way for anything without damage?  Why doesn't  capacity mean capacity when it comes to batteries? If max capacity doesn't mean max capacity with batteries, what does it mean?


-Don-  Reno, NV

Capacity really doesn't enter the equation when talking about charging  or regen Starting and stopping charging is a function of cell voltage, not capacity. Nominal v max capacity measure different things, and max is really a marketing number.

If you're asking why Zero probably doesn't quite charge to the max cell voltage, it's a function of longevity. Negative chemical reactions occur a lot faster as you get close to the cell's max voltage, and as the cell ages, the max voltage actually decreases! If you exceed that new cell voltage, aging increases way way faster for that cell, often leading to a few completely dead cells.

They're trying to get you to through that five year warranty and beyond.

[DonTom]

Capacity really doesn't enter the equation when talking about charging  or regen Starting and stopping charging is a function of cell voltage, not capacity. Nominal v max capacity measure different things, and max is really a marketing number.

If you're asking why Zero probably doesn't quite charge to the max cell voltage, it's a function of longevity. Negative chemical reactions occur a lot faster as you get close to the cell's max voltage, and as the cell ages, the max voltage actually decreases! If you exceed that new cell voltage, aging increases way way faster for that cell, often leading to a few completely dead cells.

They're trying to get you to through that five year warranty and beyond.

Yeah, I understand all that, but do you really believe getting a bit closer to the max cell voltage for a couple of seconds of regen can cause all that much harm?


But I guess every EV maker must think so, as they all turn regen off at 100SOC and i assume they know more about it than I do.


-Don-   Reno, NV

[Crissa]

Zero caps us at 80% of the cells normal 'maximum', it just seems funny they turn off regen at that point, too.  Let us use that headroom for regen, we're on the road, we'll use it up in the next few minutes anyhow.

-Crissa

[hotrob]

I wonder if an off board charger would be better than the OBC or Charge Tank even.

When I bought my SR with Charge Tank last year I checked the logs to compare the battery charging and noted that the 6kW Charge Tank increased the battery pack temperature less than the 1.2kW OBC did for the same amount of SOC increase.

For example, OBC charging from 53% to 100% increased the battery temperature from 19C to 32C (in 5 hours), whereas the 6kW Charge Tank charging from 50% to 100% increased the batttery temperature from 19C to 26C (in 1 hour 30 minutes).  The logged ambient temperature (I'm not sure where the sensor for that is) rose from 12C to 20C for the OBC but from 14C to 25C for the Charge Tank for those two charges.

I presume the OBC heats the battery more because it is mounted below the battery pack and conducts heat into it, whereas the Charge Tank is mounted above the battery pack and there is a gap between them (plus it has cooling fans blowing heat away from the battery).

[princec]

That'll be why they moved it on top of the battery for the SR/F along with the other subtle thermal management tricks.

Cas

[Crissa]

That makes the OBC better for charging in winter and overnight!

-Crissa

[DonTom]

Perhaps I should have ran my Elcons without the OBC when I was overheating. I never even thought about the OBC making the batteries warmer by getting hot just below the battery.


My Elcons are external and have fans, unlike the OBC.


I almost want to take another ride in the heat to try it!


But it also could be that the OBCs very slow charge rate gives a lot more time to heat up the battery.


That sure would be an easy fix, to charge at 5KW instead of 6.3 KW by not using my OBC.


I can live with a 5KW charge, that is nothing compared to waiting for the batteries to cool down.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[angrygirafe]

I live in Phoenix. The heat makes charging a PAIN.I bought my 2018 S 13.0 with a Charge Tank, used, back in January. The Charge Tank has NEVER worked well, the best I’ve ever gotten out of it is 25%. Right now I get 5-10% SOC increase if it doesn’t just shut off after 5 minutes. I have a 15 mile commute, 13 of it interstate, and I’m usually going 80-90mph. I get a little bit of charge at work, and am usually around 60% SOC when I get home. I leave the garage door cracked for ventilation and let the bike cool off for a few hours, but it’s often still around 100F ambient temperature when I plug it in around 9:30pm. I’m happy  if it’s back up to 90% in the morning. It rarely ever charges fully right now; the temp indicator is always flashing when I check on it in the morning.

For those curious about Phoenix, I lived here in 2009/2010 and loved it. Traffic was light and flowed well. Moved back home to Wyoming, then went to school in California, and came back to Phoenix 2 years ago. It is WAY different. Covid has lessened the traffic some, but I’d rather deal with Southern California traffic. The drivers i. cali are aggressive but predictable, and you can filter. Deivers here are just bad; super unpredictable, and I think we lead the nation in wrong way drivers and red light runners.

[DonTom]

I live in Phoenix. The heat makes charging a PAIN.I bought my 2018 S 13.0 with a Charge Tank, used, back in January. The Charge Tank has NEVER worked well, the best I’ve ever gotten out of it is 25%. Right now I get 5-10% SOC increase if it doesn’t just shut off after 5 minutes. I have a 15 mile commute, 13 of it interstate, and I’m usually going 80-90mph. I get a little bit of charge at work, and am usually around 60% SOC when I get home. I leave the garage door cracked for ventilation and let the bike cool off for a few hours, but it’s often still around 100F ambient temperature when I plug it in around 9:30pm. I’m happy  if it’s back up to 90% in the morning. It rarely ever charges fully right now; the temp indicator is always flashing when I check on it in the morning.

For those curious about Phoenix, I lived here in 2009/2010 and loved it. Traffic was light and flowed well. Moved back home to Wyoming, then went to school in California, and came back to Phoenix 2 years ago. It is WAY different. Covid has lessened the traffic some, but I’d rather deal with Southern California traffic. The drivers i. cali are aggressive but predictable, and you can filter. Deivers here are just bad; super unpredictable, and I think we lead the nation in wrong way drivers and red light runners.

Have you yet charged on a cool Phoenix December day?

I am glad to know that I still have to avoid Phoenix on my yearly RV trip to Tucson and OPCNM, etc. I love AZ, except for Phoenix. I have wondered why that place builds up so fast and non-stop. I assume there are always many high paying jobs around or something like that. I have not been inside of Phoenix since the early 1980's and it was even packed then.

Los Angeles, CA & Phoenix, AZ I want to stay around 100 miles away from during my trips.

Anyway, you should measure your battery temp with the Zero Voltage App as you charge to see what is happening when.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[angrygirafe]

I live in Phoenix. The heat makes charging a PAIN.I bought my 2018 S 13.0 with a Charge Tank, used, back in January. The Charge Tank has NEVER worked well, the best I’ve ever gotten out of it is 25%. Right now I get 5-10% SOC increase if it doesn’t just shut off after 5 minutes. I have a 15 mile commute, 13 of it interstate, and I’m usually going 80-90mph. I get a little bit of charge at work, and am usually around 60% SOC when I get home. I leave the garage door cracked for ventilation and let the bike cool off for a few hours, but it’s often still around 100F ambient temperature when I plug it in around 9:30pm. I’m happy  if it’s back up to 90% in the morning. It rarely ever charges fully right now; the temp indicator is always flashing when I check on it in the morning.

For those curious about Phoenix, I lived here in 2009/2010 and loved it. Traffic was light and flowed well. Moved back home to Wyoming, then went to school in California, and came back to Phoenix 2 years ago. It is WAY different. Covid has lessened the traffic some, but I’d rather deal with Southern California traffic. The drivers i. cali are aggressive but predictable, and you can filter. Deivers here are just bad; super unpredictable, and I think we lead the nation in wrong way drivers and red light runners.

Have you yet charged on a cool Phoenix December day?

I am glad to know that I still have to avoid Phoenix on my yearly RV trip to Tucson and OPCNM, etc. I love AZ, except for Phoenix. I have wondered why that place builds up so fast and non-stop. I assume there are always many high paying jobs around or something like that. I have not been inside of Phoenix since the early 1980's and it was even packed then.

Los Angeles, CA & Phoenix, AZ I want to stay around 100 miles away from during my trips.

Anyway, you should measure your battery temp with the Zero Voltage App as you charge to see what is happening when.

-Don-  Reno, NV

Level 1 charging was fine up until a few weeks ago, no problem. Level 2 has never worked well for me, even on 50F mornings. After charging 20-25% it shuts off. I assume there’s something wrong with the charge tank, and the summer  heat just makes it worse.

[DonTom]

Level 1 charging was fine up until a few weeks ago, no problem. Level 2 has never worked well for me, even on 50F mornings. After charging 20-25% it shuts off. I assume there’s something wrong with the charge tank, and the summer  heat just makes it worse.

Yeah, you for sure have a charge tank problem. Does the station click off, or does it think the bike is still charging?


I mean off just like when you disconnect a J1772 adapter  that still has power.  A click that disengages the station, heard from the charger, not the bike.


IOw, is it shutting off the station or just no longer charging?



-Don-  USA Parkway, Patrick, NV (charging Xero DS)

[angrygirafe]

Level 1 charging was fine up until a few weeks ago, no problem. Level 2 has never worked well for me, even on 50F mornings. After charging 20-25% it shuts off. I assume there’s something wrong with the charge tank, and the summer  heat just makes it worse.

Yeah, you for sure have a charge tank problem. Does the station click off, or does it think the bike is still charging?


I mean off just like when you disconnect a J1772 adapter  that still has power.  A click that disengages the station, heard from the charger, not the bike.


IOw, is it shutting off the station or just no longer charging?



-Don-  USA Parkway, Patrick, NV (charging Xero DS)

It… sort of shuts the station off? It doesn’t shut off the station immediately. You’ll hear the station click off, and them click back on a few seconds later. The station might show charging at less than 100w, and a few seconds later it clicks off again. It’ll do that cycle for a few minutes and then the station goes into standby and the bike dash goes blank.

I sat with it and monitored it through the app for an attempted charge back in march. 60F. The battery charged at up to 56amps, but battery temp never exceeded 84F according to the app. It still shut off after almost 30 mins and on 64% SOC.

I figured it’s a problem with the charge tank, but I hate going to dealers for service. Took my Yamaha in for standard maintenance last November and it still doesn’t work after they did… whatever it is they do.

[DonTom]

It… sort of shuts the station off? It doesn’t shut off the station immediately. You’ll hear the station click off, and them click back on a few seconds later. The station might show charging at less than 100w, and a few seconds later it clicks off again. It’ll do that cycle for a few minutes and then the station goes into standby and the bike dash goes blank.

I sat with it and monitored it through the app for an attempted charge back in march. 60F. The battery charged at up to 56amps, but battery temp never exceeded 84F according to the app. It still shut off after almost 30 mins and on 64% SOC.

I figured it’s a problem with the charge tank, but I hate going to dealers for service. Took my Yamaha in for standard maintenance last November and it still doesn’t work after they did… whatever it is they do.

Do you have a high power granny cable? If so, does it work okay with your charge tank? 

Is your charge tank 6 KW?

Have you tried different company J-1772 stations?  Does your charge tank ever work normally?  How do you charge at home?

BTW, when you have the charge tank, can you still use the OBC to get another 1.3 KW or is the charge tank already using it?

FWIW, I also try to avoid dealers as much as I can.

-Don-  Reno, NV