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[DonTom]

Here in Reno, it was only 100F/ 38C, today, so I decided to warm up a bit and take a nice ride out to the middle of the desert east of here where it was a bit warmer and all in bright sunlight.


I took my 2017 Zero DS, with the 7.2KWH battery (the 6.5 KWH battery was replaced under warranty). All  was fine charging at Silver Springs. But from there, I had to ride to Carson City for my next charge, around 35 miles at an average speed of perhaps around 60 MPH, some hills. Very hot in the middle of the day. And full bright sunshine, no shade.


The first thing I noticed was when I went down a hill, I would have regen for about one second and then NONE at all. And I mean NONE. And I mean A LOT LESS than Zero Regen as set in the Custom Mode. When I lost the regen, I thought my drive belt broke as I went down the hill. The bike has never coasted like that before, even with regen set at 0 in custom mode. It was picking  up speed very fast with the throttle all the way back to nothing as I went down hills. Much like my Energica with Regen OFF, but I didn't expect that to happen on a Zero.


At first, I had no idea what was going on.


But when I got to Carson City to recharge, it became clear. I could NOT charge at all, I had my hot indicator on the dash which I have never even seen before. I didn't even know I had such.


So I want to pass on some of the info. I discovered today about charging in the heat.


The battery stops charging at 50C / 122F according to the Zero Voltage App.


It takes a long time for the battery to cool down-- a lot longer than charging at anything above 3KW to a full charge.  At least on a very hot day like today. I charged in the shade at the Hampton Hotel after around a 40 minute wait to charge. I than tried the full charge and a 6KW and I got another 10 SOC before it started to overheat and shut off again when it hit 50C. Perhaps a 3KW charge would not have overheated, but will still take longer to get that 10% increase which was enough to get to the Tamarack Casino in Reno where I can also charge.


After that ride, it was too hot to charge again, even though I kept the bike in Eco mode and stayed off the freeway. I had the over heat alarm again, but now am only have the OBC plugged  into the bike from the J-1772 station. Still in alarm, still overheating, not charging. I left it this way as I went for dinner with ChargePoint sending me these E-mails:


"Dear Donald,

We wanted to let you know that your vehicle, which is charging at SULLYS WEST LOT / TAMARACK STA1, is drawing very little power. Typically, this means it's fully charged, however, it may also indicate that your vehicle is configured for delayed charging. Your vehicle has accepted 0.00 kWh of electricity and has been plugged in for 00:15:07 (hh:mm:ss).

Team ChargePoint"


After I ate, I came back to the bike, and to my surprise, it is now charging. I did NOT have to reset anything. So the bike will go from an over heat alarm and start charging on its own when the battery cools down a bit.  I than added in one 2.5 KW charger and got another 10 SOC, overheated again,  but  I then had more than enough to get home.


So both times, with 6 KW as well as with 3 KW, I got 10 more SOC before overheating, which makes me think I should just use the higher power when it is over heated as I will still get a 10 SOC gain before it shuts off from overheating.


My advice:


Leave your Zero at home on very hot days if you are going far enough to need a recharge.  I probably spent most of the day today waiting for my battery to cool down so I can charge and get home. I got home hours later than I would have on a cool day.


FWIW, the bike ran fine in the heat, and the NO regen at all, I liked. I wonder why we cannot set it like that in custom. I think when we set it to zero regen  in custom, there is still some regen, just too low to read, but enough to slow the bike down, very unlike what I experienced today where there was no doubt there was no regen at all, with the bike going downhill picking up speed fast at no throttle. The downside was I had to use full brakes when I came to stoplights and go no regen when I wanted it at slower speeds.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Kill3rT0fu]

Probably was a bad idea to make the battery box black.

[Richard230]

A couple of years ago one of the monthly print motorcycle magazines (it might have been Motorcycle Consumer News), before they all went out of business, had the same issue with the new Zero SR with a Charge Tank that they were testing in the LA area during the summer. The battery overheated and wouldn't accept an L2 charge. They were really pissed and said so in their review. Apparently, motorcycle magazine testers don't like to be stranded at a charging station on a hot day waiting for the compact Zero battery to take its own sweet time to cool off. 

I never have that problem with my Zero. I feel fortunate when I see a temperature of 75 degrees F during my local rides. Right now it is foggy, drizzly and 52 degrees F. Our June Gloom has arrived. 

BTW, it is not a good time to go riding in Oregon, Washington, or British Columbia. Portland hit 116 F yesterday, Seattle 107 and one location in British Columbia made it to 116 F yesterday with 118 being predicted for the high today.  The Zero battery sure wouldn't like those temperatures.

[Kill3rT0fu]

A couple of years ago one of the monthly print motorcycle magazines (it might have been Motorcycle Consumer News), before they all went out of business, had the same issue with the new Zero SR with a Charge Tank that they were testing in the LA area during the summer. The battery overheated and wouldn't accept an L2 charge. They were really pissed and said so in their review. Apparently, motorcycle magazine testers don't like to be stranded at a charging station on a hot day waiting for the compact Zero battery to take its own sweet time to cool off. 

I never have that problem with my Zero. I feel fortunate when I see a temperature of 75 degrees F during my local rides. Right now it is foggy, drizzly and 52 degrees F. Our June Gloom has arrived. 

BTW, it is not a good time to go riding in Oregon, Washington, or British Columbia. Portland hit 116 F yesterday, Seattle 107 and one location in British Columbia made it to 116 F yesterday with 118 being predicted for the high today.  The Zero battery sure wouldn't like those temperatures.

Sounds unfortunate. I have an SR, and wanted to move to phoenix sometime. Sounds like I'll need to ditch the bike for something liquid cooled.

[NoMoreIdeas]

I've been lucking on this forum for a while now, and back when people were going HAM with aftermarket chargers, overheating the battery has come up a lot, especially with extended highway riding or riding in very hot weather and charging. Basic notes are that once the battery gets that warm, it holds the heat for a long time. Its basically cells wrapped in 2 blankets and a case.. not the best thermal engineering. From what I've read, hosing the battery down with water and / or putting a fan on it is the quickest way to cool it down enough to charge. I would expect the SR/S / SR/F to have better cooling properties, as well as any motorcycle from the other 2 big ones out there.

[mryan]

It seems this is a trade off for not having to deal with coolant, even some air cooled ice motorcycles will overheat on very hot days. One could get creative and mount fan+heatsinks or even mist the exterior of the battery box, as they're filled with a resin that takes the heat from the cells and expels them to the outside of the box, the whole thing is really a giant heatsink. No idea if that would help though.

[DonTom]

Sounds unfortunate. I have an SR, and wanted to move to phoenix sometime. Sounds like I'll need to ditch the bike for something liquid cooled.

Your riding season in Phoenix will simply be the opposite of most cooler places. Winter will be your main riding season.


FWIW,  Phoenix  is a place I try my best to avoid. Much like Los Angeles. But I love west Tucson and usually go there every year in my RV (with my Zero DS). And Tucson has a Zero dealer as does Phoenix.


Payson is another town I like near Phoenix. Or even Casa Grande. Phoenix is just way too packed with people and cars. Have you been to any of these other palaces. But big fire north of Payson right now.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Kill3rT0fu]

Payson is another town I like near Phoenix. Or even Casa Grande. Phoenix is just way too packed with people and cars. Have you been to any of these other palaces. But big fire north of Payson right now.


-Don-  Reno, NV

I've been to phoenix a few times when I lived in vegas. They have so many lanes in phoenix, even if there's traffic, it flows. I lived in Denver too long and anything more than 2 lanes is heaven to me. Took Denver 8+ years to widen I-25 by just 2 lanes, and one of them is a toll lane.

[DonTom]

I've been to phoenix a few times when I lived in vegas. They have so many lanes in phoenix, even if there's traffic, it flows. I lived in Denver too long and anything more than 2 lanes is heaven to me.

How bad will Phoenix be going trough in an RV? It's been many years since I have been there, so it sounds likes things have changed for the better.


BTW, Zeros are fine on hot days if you don't need a charge on the road. At home, you can use a fan or whatever to blow some of the heat off the battery as you charge. Just avoid longer trips on very hot days where you could need to recharge when on the road.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

Probably was a bad idea to make the battery box black.

You have the opposite problem in the winter.

I get that 'regen failure' about once or twice a month, usually if I've just charged for a ride because I live atop a hill, but I've gotten it when recharging on the road, too.

-Crissa

[svelectric]

I don't know how much it helps, but have read that turning off any regen via the custom profile can help not generate so much heat while riding.  That and lower speeds/less acceleration I'm sure could help.  Still no quick way to cool down, that battery holds the heat a long time.  I wonder if an off board charger would be better than the OBC or Charge Tank even.

[DonTom]

You have the opposite problem in the winter.

I get that 'regen failure' about once or twice a month, usually if I've just charged for a ride because I live atop a hill, but I've gotten it when recharging on the road, too.

-Crissa

Is your FW up to date? I would not expect you to have any charging issues with temperature where you live, with either cold or hot. But you do have an older bike.


But if you're on the top of a hill, like I am here (the very top) it's normal to have no regen at 100 SOC going down the hill to prevent overcharging the battery. That has nothing to do with the battery temp. Tesla also does that, as well as my Energica. Best to only charge to less than 95% and then still have your regen. But on our older Zeros, there is no easy way to shut off at exactly 95% without watching it. I have my DS fully charged right now, so I will have to brake to go down the hill at the 25 MPH (often enforced here with a cop hiding) with no regen.


I can have the Tesla and my Energica stop charging automatically at any SOC I want. But not with either of my Zeros.


Not a big issue. That's an issue I can live with, unlike yesterday when it took three times as long to wait for my battery to cool off than the time for the charge itself. That means four times as long, which is unreasonable.  No more long rides on hot days for me on my Zeros.


FWIW, I have also ridden my Energica on days just as hot but with no serious charging issues, perhaps just fast charged a little slower than usual, but not enough difference for me to even notice. But my battery indicator would stay mostly yellow (means just a little warmer than ideal).


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

Yeah, when it cuts out regen is... weird.  It's not directly to displayed SoC, but it's related to it somehow.

I have had rides where regen gets extra-powerful, and rides where it stays turned off, like the bike goes back to some default or forgets to update the regen map.

I assume it's not temperature for me (though my only stranding may have been) but that I live in the mountains and max out regen on downhills frequently and tend to recharge in the cold.

-Crissa

[DonTom]

Yeah, when it cuts out regen is... weird.  It's not directly to displayed SoC, but it's related to it somehow.

I have had rides where regen gets extra-powerful, and rides where it stays turned off, like the bike goes back to some default or forgets to update the regen map.

I assume it's not temperature for me (though my only stranding may have been) but that I live in the mountains and max out regen on downhills frequently and tend to recharge in the cold.

-Crissa

Regen is not related to SOC when it's from an overheated battery. I had no regen at 20% SOC yesterday. But being fully charged (even on a cool day) is related to SOC.  The battery needs a place to store the extra energy without exceeding the battery's nominal capacity. So the easiest way to deal with that is to have the regen shut off automatically until there is some room  in the battery left for it.


But I have wondered what would happen, by such a small amount, if they just let it charge above the nominal capacity to a bit closer to the max battery capacity. I have a hard time believing it can make that much difference, but they do it on every EV made, so there has to be a good reason for it.  I mean it is just for a few seconds,  or perhaps a minute to get down a hill, so why can't they just leave it at max regen?  Perhaps one of the battery experts in this forum can explain that one. Even several thousand watts for a minute isn't all that much when it comes to recharging an EV battery.


-Don-  Cold Springs Valley, NV

[Auriga]

Yeah, when it cuts out regen is... weird.  It's not directly to displayed SoC, but it's related to it somehow.

I have had rides where regen gets extra-powerful, and rides where it stays turned off, like the bike goes back to some default or forgets to update the regen map.

I assume it's not temperature for me (though my only stranding may have been) but that I live in the mountains and max out regen on downhills frequently and tend to recharge in the cold.

-Crissa

Regen is not related to SOC when it's from an overheated battery. I had no regen at 20% SOC yesterday. But being fully charged (even on a cool day) is related to SOC.  The battery needs a place to store the extra energy without exceeding the battery's nominal capacity. So the easiest way to deal with that is to have the regen shut off automatically until there is some room  in the battery left for it.


But I have wondered what would happen, by such a small amount, if they just let it charge above the nominal capacity to a bit closer to the max battery capacity. I have a hard time believing it can make that much difference, but they do it on every EV made, so there has to be a good reason for it.  I mean it is just for a few seconds,  or perhaps a minute to get down a hill, so why can't they just leave it at max regen?  Perhaps one of the battery experts in this forum can explain that one. Even several thousand watts for a minute isn't all that much when it comes to recharging an EV battery.


-Don-  Cold Springs Valley, NV

Even a slight overcharge would cause a permanently decreased discharge capacity for that cell. If it lasts too long, the cell will pressurize/catch fire/explode. And the effects are cumulative.
 The other thing to note is that batteries involve chemical processes. Dumping power into it will cause the voltage to overshoot the target for a brief time, and the reverse is true when you draw a big load. Further, overcharging  causes irreversible negative chemical reactions like overgassing and the formation of lithium metal on the anode, and could lead to thermal runaway.


To protect against that, if any cell exceeds the upper safety limit, it'll cause the bike to open its contactor and quit while running.

Would not recommend.