Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[DonTom]

I am now charging my Zero DS at Silver Springs, NV at 6.3 kW with no issues on a J-plug.

I just came from USA Parkway (Near Tesla battery Factory) and used my Tesla-Tap with the 16KW Tesla  Destination stations . These have always timed out on me within ten minutes. I did a lot of experimenting today to figure out the cause.

I discovered if I only use the OBC, I do NOT have this issue and can get a full charge if I want to waste over half the day.    I ran it for more than 30 minutes with no timeout when I disconnected the Elcons.

I reasoned a conclusion about what is happening and it has an easy fix.

My guess is the Elcons have excessive electrical noise getting back to the AC cord. Filtering is done better in the Zero than the more powerful and older Elcons. I am using the two 2.5 KW Elcons.

I will later check on an oscilloscope to see how much electrical noise is on the Elcons and see how it compares to the OBC. Switching power  supplies have many switching circuits and oscillators that can cause a lot of electrical noise back to the AC line. I assume the newer Tesla charge stations have much better filtering than the old 16KW stations.

Since I cannot modify the TD stations on the road, I will filter the AC lines of my ELcons and check at USA Parkway again.

-Don-  Silver Springs, NV

[DonTom]

I am now back home.


I just ordered a bunch of these that I will put these in my Tesla-Tap to 14-50R Boxes and always use them at Tesla Stations as these boxes only pass the voltage (and the noise goes back through them too). They also get rid of the pilot signal that I have no use for and can cause problems on Zeros (especially my SR with Pwr Tank as it says there on the website). You want the pilot with charge tanks and the SR/F and SR/S of course. But I am dealing with 2017 Zeros with no charge tanks and the pilot can only cause me problems and not do anything useful for me.


The filters should  stop most of  the electrical noise from the Elcons getting  back into the Tesla station.


I just opened one of the Tesla to 14-50R boxes and there is plenty of room and it looks like a very easy job to wire in the filter. Nothing in these boxes except for wire. And the thick HV wires are screwed into the 14-50R where I will wire in the filters



After I try it out on USA Parkway (but perhaps in a couple of weeks), I will post here the results. I expect them to do the trick.


But the proof is when I try them out.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

The filters came in late yesterday, but I have the Tesla to 14-50R Tesla Tap box ready to test, with one filter inside.  While I thought it would be a simple fast job it ended up taking hours to get everything the way I want and to fit so the box will close and such.


Anyway, I decided to use only one filter for two Elcons and NOT filter the OBC.  That way I won't be much over the 20 amp limit of one (240 times 20 amps=4,800 watts. Close  enough for my two 2.5 KW Elcons (~5 KW). I have a C13 plug coming out of the box which will be unfiltered 240 VAC for the OBC.


I will try it out at USA Parkway (near the Tesla Battery Plant) in a day or two and I will report back here if it solves the problem of the 16 KW Tesla Destination Stations dropping out in around 5 minutes or so.


See the photos below of the box and filter I added to it.




-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

I am now headed out to USA Parkway where I have never been able to use my Elcons for a full ten minutes in the past, without the 16 KW Tesla Destination stations (TDS) shutting down and turned red and then needing to be  reset.  About five minutes most of the time, but never made it to a full ten.


I will see if all is oaky now with the added filter.


I am fully charged now, by using the filter and Elcons, but I never had the issue here at home with my 12KW TDS (called Wall Connector at home, but can be the same thing).


I will use up half of that charge getting there with my 7.2KWH battery, so I will be all set for at least a 20 minute charge.


I will report back here today the results. I still have not yet checked my Elcons on a scope, but will soon and compare filtered, unfiltered and also compare to the OBC, regardless of the results today.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

I just got back from charging at USA Parkway.


Very disappointing results.


The filter made NO difference at all, regardless if I use one or two Econs with the J-conversion box.  No problem if I only use the OBC.


My theory is still electrical noise is causing the problem,  but way too low of a frequency and passes right trough the EMI filter.  Is anything else even possible?  I don't think a 2.5 KW charger can overload a 16KW station unless these old TDS drop their capacity when in the J-1772 mode. And I seriously doubt it will be by that much.


If I can find my small oscilloscope, perhaps I will get some answers. But it could be at another house.


Lower frequency noise will be more hassle to get rid of than the high freq stuff on this high power stuff. But IAC, I want to at least find the cause, even if there is no practical fix.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

The Elcons are as clean as the OBC, even when unfiltered, checked right on the AC Plug.  See scope photo of my Elcon below, taken at 60% SOC as it charges the DS battery. The scope is on the AC plug, as I need to see if anything is getting back to the TDS. The scope looks EXATCLY the same on the OBC.


I also checked the grounds, both sides of the 240 VAC, etc. Since I am looking for something weird, I am even checking for the unexpected.  No problems of any type shown in any way possible. No noise, very clean even unfiltered which explains why my EMI filter did NOT help at all.





Ground faults as well as electrical noise garbage (of any frequency) with  my  Elcons on the  AC plugs is now ruled out.



Since the OBC works fine with the TDS it must mean the 16KW TDS can only do around 1.5KW or perhaps 2 KW in the J-1772 mode. But I have a very hard time buying that.


Is there anything left that I missed that is even a remote possibility?  I am out of ideas, other than what I cannot do, and tear those 16KW TDSes on the road apart to see what is really going on. Configuration issue inside? Anybody know what can be configured in the 16 KW stations?  To only provide 2KW in J-1772 mode?


-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

I just thought of one more thing. The low power capacity has already been ruled out as well.


I have had my Energica there, using the same TDS with no problem at all. I had it charging there before  for a good hour. That is 3KW.


So now I am thinking if the 16 KW TDS somehow senses no pilot signal being used, it times out in five minutes.


Really, I don't like any of my guesses, but what is left when the impossible seems to be happening?


-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

And I just thought about something else. The pilot is not being used when I use my OBC, which works fine on the 16KW TDS.


Everything possible has been ruled out, so now what?




-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

I just now thought of one more thing to try. Use one of my 2.5 KW Elcons with nothing else to charge my Zero DS. IOW, No  OBC used. That will be very close to the same draw as my Energica, if not just a little less.


I don't recall trying that before. But that will prove if the 16 KW TDS can only do around 3 KW max in the J1772 mode.  And that will solve this mystery, if that works for more than ten minutes.


-Don- Reno, NV

[Crissa]

It's possible it requires a pilot signal only for more than a 20a circuit.

-Crissa

[Demoni]

It's possible it requires a pilot signal only for more than a 20a circuit.

-Crissa

Don based on your extensive tests I think that Crissa might be on to something. A programed threshold at an arbitrary current draw is causing the charge cycle to time out? Would be interested in hearing the results of your single Elcon experiment.

Might want to look into signal generator?

[DonTom]

It's possible it requires a pilot signal only for more than a 20a circuit.

-Crissa

Don based on your extensive tests I think that Crissa might be on to something. A programed threshold at an arbitrary current draw is causing the charge cycle to time out? Would be interested in hearing the results of your single Elcon experiment.

Might want to look into signal generator?

Yeah, I will probably give it a try later today.


But it cannot be at 20 amps because 20 amps is 4,800 watts at 240 VAC  and I have already tried the OBC with one Elcon which is 2500 watts plus 1300 watts which equals only  3,800 watts and the TDS still shut off in five minutes. If the current limit is only around 15 amps or less  in the J-1772 mode, when the pilot is not being used, that will explain it. 15 amps at 240 VAC is 3600 watts.




-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

Might want to look into signal generator?

I don't understand why. The 1KHZ PWM 24 V P2P  (+/- 12V signal) originates in the charge station. Perhaps it just needs a load of 1K-ohm or so load to know there is a vehicle there.


See page 30 to 34 here.


What ever it requires, it is only on the 16 KW TDS. The lower power newer ones (such as my 12 KW Tesla  Wall Connector used here) has no trace of this shut off issue at any draw up to 12 KW.


I know there are 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen TDS. Anybody know the difference and which does the 16 KW TDSs fall under?


Unfortunately, my Tesla is in Auburn. What would be an interesting test would be converted the 16 KW TDS to J-1772 and then use a J-1772 adapter to my Tesla  and see what happens.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

No, a standard 20a circuit is not 240v * 20a.  It would be 1/2 * 240v * 0.8 * 20a.

-Crissa

[DonTom]

No, a standard 20a circuit is not 240v * 20a.  It would be 1/2 * 240v * 0.8 * 20a.

-Crissa

Who said anything about any standard?


There is nothing standard about Tesla Destination Stations, they vary all all over.


The 16KW TDS are 240 VAC which means to get to 16 KW they have to be  66.666666 amps capable per plug.


And what was wrong with my 240 VAC times 20 amps=4,800 watts?


And where do you get that "half 240 VAC"? There is no neutral involved in charge stations. I don't even connect neutral  in the adapters I make for EV charging as it won't go anywhere anyway.


-Don-