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Author Topic: New SR/S - some observations  (Read 1468 times)

Mooseman

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New SR/S - some observations
« on: June 28, 2021, 05:38:08 AM »

As much as I love my first electric motorcycle, a Zero SR/S Premium with a power tank, there are a few things that seem odd.

1. The lack of a parking brake. A regular bike doesn't need one, but I feel like an electric bike should come with a parking brake. Luckily for me the area around here is rather flat, so I never have to park on a slope.

2. The lack of a brake light that lights up when decelerating regardless of me using the friction brakes. This seems like a safety hazard to me, especially at higher speeds. I use a custom profile with full regen to extend range as much as possible and to reduce brake wear. It's pretty much the equivalent to one-pedal driving in my car (also EV). The highest speed limit around here is 110 kph. People regularly go faster, I'd say up to about 130 kph according to the speedo which seems a bit too optimistic. In reality that's about 124 kph. At that speed, even without regen, the deceleration would be pretty hard due to air drag. With regen it's even stronger and traffic behind me never sees the brake light. Just lightly pulling the brake lever to activate the brake switch is not an option because the bike will immediately go into full regen. I feel like this is something that Zero should address. I know that there is already a three page long thread about this topic so I'll just leave it to that.

3. An electric bike for about C$38,000 (SR/S Premium with Power tank incl. fees and taxes) is delivered with incandescent bulbs for the turn signals. Seriously? This is a disgrace, especially since they have LED turn signals in their parts catalog. This is just a money grab. It appears that aftermarket LED turn signals only work with a resistor built in which artificially increases the power consumption, so no, thank you. Does anyone have the Zero LED turn lights and knows how much they cost? My dealership is not competent enough to even respond to this question.

4. There is a number of bugs in the software. Most notably is that if I set the charge target to let's say 30%, the bike will send a message to my phone saying that charging has completed at 30%, however it won't stop charging until it reaches 36%. I've tried this with various settings and it always keeps charging for a couple more percent. I contacted Zero about this and they recommended to use the provided charger rather than my Tesla Gen2/Gen3 Wall Connector (I have one of each and use a Lectron adapter [Tesla -> J1772]). That's not something I'd want to do on a daily basis as... well, I'll get to that in 5. Suffice to say that the Tesla Wall Connector is not the problem. I tried the Aptiv unit and while everything wen t a lot slower, the effect itself was the same. Either way, there is no way a wall connector can force anything on the battery. The bike actively has to request power, otherwise the contactor will open. This is precisely what should happen at the target percentage. I have attached a picture that shows this very effect at a charge target of 55% and it keeps going with time left showing 0:00. This was with the Aptiv level 1 charger, thus the low power (1.4 kW). Do others have the same issue? I'm not entirely sure yet if this a software bug or a botched power tank installation.

5. As far as I know the Energica and the LifeWire have DCFC options. I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it would be great to be able to fully recharge while having a coffee at a Timmies, but then again, I can't tell how much stress this would put on the battery. No active cooling, a relatively small battery to begin with... If I recharge from 20-80% in just 20 minutes, there is a good chance that this will affect battery life. Does anybody have first hand experience with other bikes? Am I just being overcautious or is that really an issue?

6. The service plan is ridiculous. It appears as though Zero is trying to do their dealers a favour by scheduling way more visits at the shop than necessary. Seriously, who changes their brake fluid every year? I barely even use my brake thanks to the regen. It would probably still be working fine if I used water instead of actual brake fluid (just exaggerating to make my point, of course I'm not going to do it).

That's it so far. Otherwise I'm really happy not to deal with a chain and grease anymore. Driving is a lot more fun than before, especially the part where you don't have to shift down if you need acceleration. The power is always available, no matter what. I had a dude with a Ninja next to me at a light the other day and he was looking at me like "what's wrong with your engine, I can't hear anything"). When the light turned green I opened throttle and he was still standing there when I was already past the intersection. He's probably still wondering what got him ;D.

What else... I brought my bike to a local detail shop to get a ceramic coating:
I tried to insert a link here but it just won't work. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Let's try something else:
Code: [Select]
https://www.facebook.com/thedetailshopcornwall/posts/2271098876356345I haven't checked here but people are usually pretty divided about that, so feel about it any way you like, I'm not going to hate you  :P

Last but not least the light appears a lot better than pretty much anything I've seen before on a motorcycle. It seems to be a bit out of alignment though and I'm not riding much in the dark, so I'll have to check that at a later time. From what I've seen so far the lights are pretty strong though.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 05:46:34 AM by Mooseman »
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Richard230

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2021, 06:54:56 AM »

I agree that not having a parking brake is a real issue. What I have done is to use a strip of Velcro to wrap around the front brake lever to lock it on. I think Zero used to sell a parking brake for perhaps more money than it is worth. If you don't like Velcro, you can check their accessory catalog for your bike to see if they still sell that.

What I have done with my S is to use maximum regen when braking and no regen when coasting with the throttle closed. When I want to slow down using the regen, I will lightly touch the front brake just enough to turn on the regen braking and the rear brake light, but not hard enough to actually result in braking by the front caliper.

The only time I have had any servicing performed on my bike was at the 600-mile initial checkup. All the tech did was to check over the chassis and "commission" the motor. That service only cost $200, compared with the $650 I was charged for the 600-mile servicing on my 2020 KTM 390 Duke.  :o  I now do all of my own servicing on all of my motorcycles, especially around here where motorcycle shops are now charging $180 an hour.  :(
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Blotman

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2021, 11:15:35 AM »

I had Chevy EV and now a Tesla that both use some algorithm to determine if the brake light should activate with regen coasting. Surprised Zero hasn't started doing so yet. What Richard230 mentions to get around this is what I do as well, except I tend to start my braking with the rear and then begin to apply the front if I need to be serious about slowing down.

For the brake lock, again I'm surprised this isn't built in at this point. I use a this brake level lock that I got from Amazon. It adds a couple seconds to my pre and post ride routine, but on top of keeping the bike stationary, it also acts as an extra layer of security.

Also a reverse switch would be nice. Can this system not spin the motor backwards, or is there a safety concern? Even if it's capped at half a mph, I'll take it.
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DonTom

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2021, 12:13:18 PM »

I agree that not having a parking brake is a real issue.
I don't know how I got by without my Bullet Brake. It also makes a great hill hold at stoplights on a hill.


-Don-  Reno, NV
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2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Kawasaki Versys 650 LT
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2017 Org Zero DS ZF 6.5/(now is 7.2)
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MrMogensen

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2021, 10:16:52 PM »

About point 5...
Energica (and guessing also Livewire) has active water cooling so that's why they can DC charge without putting much stress on the batttery. Should also mean they can take more of a beating before getting heat buildup warnings (I believe).
Downside is more servicing than Zero.
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princec

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2021, 10:49:24 PM »

Er, I don't think the Energica pack is liquid cooled? It's got ventilation holes through it instead.

My corroboration after 3500 miles on the SR/F:

1. The only time I've ever, ever needed a parking brake for a motorcycle in the last 32 years / 250,000 miles was when I put them on the ferry. I'm sure that there are situations involving crazy hills and orientation that you might come across but seriously... just park somewhere else! The velcro strap round the front brake sounds like a brilliantly inexpensive and very light solution. I suppose almost anything will do that you can ratchet tight. Even hairbands might work fine.

2. I sort of agree here, except I have 0% extra regen on braking - I don't want the rear brake to suddenly come on any stronger than I'm actually pressing on the lever and upsetting the chassis - so instead it's just down to whether a brake light should come on under "normal" regen settings. I ride with 40% passive regen (aka plain vanilla Street mode) as it feels just like a big twin cylinder engine and I wouldn't want the brake light to come on. The 100% regen setting seems far more fierce. The solution I think would be to be able to specify at what % of regeneration you'd like the brake light to come on at, something that could be implemented in software nice and easily. If Zero had any software engineers...

3. Something to do with the US construction regs. Daft. Exported bikes should be fitted with LEDs as standard though. There is a software setting that mitigates the need to use resistors which a dealer can apply.

4. Don't get me started on how they could get the software so badly wrong. Mercifully I've never suffered from "magic charging" (v19 here) and it all seems to ride ok. The phone app is next to useless at doing the very few things it is supposed to do. Suspect they had a contractor who's since just buggered off completely and left them with a heap of code they have no idea what to do with. As for the firmware... seems they need some more experienced software engineers on the team there too.

5. There's no DCFC because the battery voltage is too low for any existing CCS specs. Chademo might have worked (they made it) but Chademo is for freaks and weirdos anyway, and also, most charging stations failed to fully implement the spec and couldn't provide the low voltage Zero needs. Zero can't easily change the voltage because their entire power train is designed around a low-volts-big-amps paradigm. Don't worry about battery stress, you're far more likely to have one of the expensive ancillary control units blow up instead.

6. Oddly the dealer never mentioned the service plan to me. I asked him if the belt ever needed adjusting and he said nope, don't even worry about touching it. Personally I'm not going to get it serviced, I'll just have the brake pads replaced on tyre change if they look thin and get the brake and fork oil changed after maybe 20k miles. Keep an eye on the belt though. I've bought the Krikit gauge, but I've yet to use it.

Cas :)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 11:03:02 PM by princec »
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Crissa

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2021, 12:30:53 AM »

I find I have to park crosswise in a parking space about half the time.  A parking brake would be really useful.

-Crissa
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Richard230

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2021, 03:13:48 AM »

There is nothing fierce about the regen braking on my 2018 S, even at a 100% setting. About the same as having an ICE bike in fourth gear with the throttle closed. And you hardly even notice regen in the sport or eco modes.  I also note that manual braking on either in either of those two modes seems to make no increase in regen braking over the closed throttle drag.   ???

I have parked on relative steep grades where my Zero will start to roll backward. And if facing forward on much more than a slight downhill grade a way to lock one of the brakes is definitely needed. The Velcro strap works just fine for me.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

princec

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2021, 04:13:04 AM »

100% regen on the SR/F feels even more strong than chopping the throttle closed on my 690.

Still can't figure out how everyone is having trouble parking on slopes and rolling bikes... I park my SR/F at the top of a reasonably steep (and very uneven) path every time I get it out of the garden so I can close the gate behind me, but that's sort of by the by... on any particular slope there is always an angle you can position the bike at so that it can't or won't roll... which is what I've always done, and why I don't need a parking brake.

Cas :)
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Crissa

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2021, 05:16:17 AM »

It's difficult to photo slopes, but there's one gate in my neighborhood that I can't seem to manage to stop my bike on.

-Crissa
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Mooseman

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2021, 06:02:42 AM »

Thanks all for your valuable feedback. Cas got right to the one situation where I would really like to have a parking brake: on ferries. Either way, I stand by my initial statement that electric bikes should have one.

I got feedback from Zero today acknowledging that the overcharging is indeed a firmware issue. I was told that the issue should be fixed in an upcoming firmware update. We'll see. At least they're honest about it.

I also found another software bug: if you display the trip efficiency on the dash and reset the trip counter right before a trip, you'll see that even if you go at a constant speed, the consumption keeps increasing (well above the instant Wh/km) only to suddenly drop at some point. And after that it's rinse and repeat, however the effect slowly fades with increased mileage.

What I believe is happening is that they know the exact energy consumed at any given time, but instead of dividing that number by the exact distance driven, they devide it by INT(distance driven). So let's say you use 80 Wh/km and the dash updates every 0.1 km. Instead of showing

80 Wh / 1 km = 80 Wh/km
88 Wh / 1.1 km = 80 Wh/km
96 Wh / 1.2 km = 80 Wh/km

and so on it shows

80 Wh / 1 km = 80 Wh/km
88 Wh / 1 km = 88 Wh/km
96 Wh / 1 km = 96 Wh/km
...
152 Wh / 1 km = 152 Wh/km
160 Wh / 2 km = 80 Wh/km

and so forth. The effect is similar when you switch to miles instead of kilometres, except it appears to update the distance driven internally every half mile.

Not really an issue, just sloppy programming. I hope they'll actually make changes to make their product better, but from what I read here, this might just be me being naïve.
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MrMogensen

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2021, 02:08:45 PM »

Er, I don't think the Energica pack is liquid cooled? It's got ventilation holes through it instead...

Oh... I thought that it was liquid cooled since it's ability to DC "fast" charge and not as easily run hot on a racetrack. I guess the only liquid is for the motor/gear then. :)
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T.S. Zarathustra

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2021, 05:23:30 PM »

Regen provides such miniscule charge that it's practically worthless. I would turn it off and let go of the throttle little bit earlier to slow down.
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reini

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2021, 05:41:27 PM »

Regen provides such miniscule charge that it's practically worthless. I would turn it off and let go of the throttle little bit earlier to slow down.
Depends on what you want from it. I agree that it's not really extending your range, I like it as a "third" brake and I'm used to engine braking from my ICE bike.
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princec

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Re: New SR/S - some observations
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2021, 06:00:36 PM »

Same here... it's a very useful tool and should help the brake pads last an awful lot longer.

Also, maybe one day, maybe, you'll be really glad of that extra 2 miles it eked out of the range ;)

Cas :)
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