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[victor6.7y]

Reading your first post, I do not think you are interested in your minimum pack voltage.
You probably want to ride until the bike refuses to start. Then you will know your "range".

The bike (at least the zero s 2019) will protect itself from having discharged too far.
I have a feeling that the BMS and the percentage on the display re aligns on; a. how its programmed and b. experience how far the BMS can go.


MBB

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03374     11/15/2020 20:31:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 33C, l 28C, PackSOC:  2%, Vpack:  94.76V, MotAmps:  37, BattAmps:  21, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  45C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1868, Odo:  974km
 03375     11/15/2020 20:32:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 33C, l 28C, PackSOC:  1%, Vpack: 94.272V, MotAmps:  53, BattAmps:  34, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  45C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:2048, Odo:  975km
 03376     11/15/2020 20:33:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 33C, l 28C, PackSOC:  1%, Vpack: 92.235V, MotAmps: 189, BattAmps: 113, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  44C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1784, Odo:  975km
 03377     11/15/2020 20:34:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 33C, l 28C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 94.412V, MotAmps:  25, BattAmps:  16, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  46C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1958, Odo:  976km
 03378     11/15/2020 20:35:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 33C, l 28C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 93.532V, MotAmps:  65, BattAmps:  41, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  46C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1962, Odo:  977km
 03379     11/15/2020 20:36:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 33C, l 28C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 94.493V, MotAmps:  58, BattAmps:  20, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  45C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1104, Odo:  977km
 03380     11/15/2020 20:37:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 33C, l 28C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 93.829V, MotAmps: 259, BattAmps:  61, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  43C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM: 597, Odo:  978km
 03381     11/15/2020 20:38:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 33C, l 28C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 94.962V, MotAmps: -12, BattAmps:   0, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  44C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM: 694, Odo:  978km
 03382     11/15/2020 20:39:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 33C, l 28C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 94.477V, MotAmps:  25, BattAmps:  10, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  43C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1253, Odo:  979km
 03383     11/15/2020 20:40:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 33C, l 28C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 94.852V, MotAmps: -24, BattAmps:  -5, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  43C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1021, Odo:  979km
 03384     11/15/2020 20:41:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 33C, l 28C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 94.261V, MotAmps:  30, BattAmps:  12, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  42C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1156, Odo:  980km
 03385     11/15/2020 20:42:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 93.985V, MotAmps:  32, BattAmps:  14, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  42C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1337, Odo:  980km
 03386     11/15/2020 20:43:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack:  93.99V, MotAmps:  32, BattAmps:  12, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  42C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1194, Odo:  981km
 03387     11/15/2020 20:44:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 94.409V, MotAmps: -16, BattAmps:  -2, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  42C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM: 835, Odo:  981km
 03388     11/15/2020 20:45:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 93.403V, MotAmps:  33, BattAmps:  14, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  41C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1337, Odo:  982km
 03389     11/15/2020 20:46:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 93.337V, MotAmps:  36, BattAmps:  16, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  42C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1290, Odo:  982km
 03390     11/15/2020 20:47:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 93.198V, MotAmps:  34, BattAmps:  14, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  41C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1218, Odo:  983km
 03391     11/15/2020 20:48:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 92.707V, MotAmps:  43, BattAmps:  17, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  41C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1222, Odo:  983km
 03392     11/15/2020 20:49:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 92.512V, MotAmps:   0, BattAmps:   1, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  41C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1331, Odo:  984km
 03393     11/15/2020 20:50:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 92.447V, MotAmps:  33, BattAmps:  13, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  41C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1260, Odo:  984km
 03394     11/15/2020 20:51:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 91.437V, MotAmps:  55, BattAmps:  26, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  41C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1372, Odo:  985km
 03395     11/15/2020 20:52:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 91.044V, MotAmps: 176, BattAmps:  52, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  40C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM: 757, Odo:  985km
 03396     11/15/2020 20:53:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 91.886V, MotAmps: -24, BattAmps:  -6, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  40C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1067, Odo:  986km
 03397     11/15/2020 20:54:15   Riding                     PackTemp: h 32C, l 27C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 89.645V, MotAmps:  79, BattAmps:  31, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  40C, CtrlTemp:  17C, AmbTemp:   5C, MotRPM:1174, Odo:  986km
 03398     11/15/2020 20:54:33   0x1c 0x47 0x5d 0x01 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x30 0x02 0xb2 0x26 0xfd ???   
 03399     11/15/2020 20:54:33    - DEBUG: MBB measured 88615mV   
 03400     11/15/2020 20:54:33   Throttle Disabled:         Low Batt Voltage,     
 03401     11/15/2020 20:54:55   Power Off                  Key Switch


BMS

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00916     11/15/2020 20:54:07   Discharge level            119 AH, SOC:  0%, I:024A, L:3078, l:3137, H:3273, B:195, PT:032C, BT:026C, PV:89764, M:Bike On
 00917     11/15/2020 20:54:07   SOC:114417,113295,119001,114800,0,0,0,35   
 00918     11/15/2020 20:54:07   Discharge cutback          4%
 00919     11/15/2020 20:54:07   30A   
 00920     11/15/2020 20:54:33   0x05 0xeb 0x0b 0xc0 0x0c 0x20 0x1a 0x24 0xa7 0x19 0x07 0x00 0x47 0x5d 0x01 0x00 0x20 0x00 0xb2 0xc0 0xfd ???   
 00921     11/15/2020 20:54:33    - DEBUG: Cells - 3051, 3088, 3165, 3167, 3211, 3192, 3259, 3214, 3227, 3219, 3201, 3190, 3264, 3203, 3226, 3244, 3198, 3230, 3206, 3201, 3222, 3211, 3178, 3185, 3191, 3145, 3172, 3155   
 00922     11/15/2020 20:54:55   Contactor was Opened       Pack V: 91581mV, Switched V: 91529mV, Prechg Pct: 100%, Dischg Cur: 1232mA
 00923     11/15/2020 20:54:56   System Turned Off   
 00924     11/15/2020 20:54:56   DEBUG: CAN Link Is Down   
 00925     11/15/2020 20:54:56   DEBUG: Entered Idle State 





What i'm trying to say:

• MBB and BMS are two seperate units. The MBB estimates the "range"
• A range test does not really depend on the voltage the BMS will get to, but mostly till when the BMS will provide power

!! Disclamer: I like to ride my bike till I have to walk home, once a year... Not too often. While the BMS will protect the battery, the battery will not love you for doing so.
Remember; Happy battery, Happy bike 

[herculeesjr]

I'm definitely interested in what the minimum voltage is, which appears to be 88v, so that way I can get an estimate in my head how much range I have left before it's completely dead. Like how my truck can say "0 miles to E" on the dash but if I plug into the OBD port I can see the fuel guage is still reading 8% in the tank. It's a "reserve" that you don't want to use frequently, but is nice to know it's there and how much range it can provide in case of emergency.
It seems 92.4v is a safe low voltage, while 88v can be reached with very gentle acceleration.

[victor6.7y]

Interesting idea.

How would you determine the range you have left, if the Vpack shows 96v?


I added a plot of a different range test I did last month. I drove on the highway for a quite constant speed till 18% Pack SOC. After that I went to try my luck to see how far I could go beyond 0% and a range estimate of 0km. I did not max it out completely. but this might help you.

A nice thing to note is probably that the voltage does not decrease linearly.

I look forward to your estimation method.

[flynnstig82r]

I'm definitely interested in what the minimum voltage is, which appears to be 88v, so that way I can get an estimate in my head how much range I have left before it's completely dead. Like how my truck can say "0 miles to E" on the dash but if I plug into the OBD port I can see the fuel guage is still reading 8% in the tank. It's a "reserve" that you don't want to use frequently, but is nice to know it's there and how much range it can provide in case of emergency.
It seems 92.4v is a safe low voltage, while 88v can be reached with very gentle acceleration.

That sounds about right, but don't count on being able to get all the way to 88v no matter how gently you accelerate. Mine only got down to 90.6v and wouldn't turn back on.

[Crissa]

When batteries are low on charge the voltage sag from applying a load can drop it below the minimum.  This is of course worse in cold conditions.

-Crissa

[herculeesjr]

So I wouldn't really know how to calculate remaining range say from 95v to 90v. I'm sure there's some math that can be done by looking at the data sheet for the specific cells used by Zero, but I haven't looked into it or even thought of trying, yet. My idea was more of having the ZeroSpy app running in this emergency situation and watching the voltage as I ride, and by the time I'm down to let's say 92v I know I absolutely better find an outlet in the next half mile or find a safe place to pull over and call a tow.
From what research I have done it seems there's still multiple miles of city riding left at 95v, maybe even a bit of interstate riding, but no concrete answers on how much. Plus when you're looking at such a narrow band of voltage range compared to the entire pack charge range small variables like careful acceleration between person to person plus temperature and road incline all can have dramatic effects.

[Crissa]

Voltage and amperage available are not a one to one ratio.  There's curves involved.

-Crissa

[Auriga]

So I wouldn't really know how to calculate remaining range say from 95v to 90v. I'm sure there's some math that can be done by looking at the data sheet for the specific cells used by Zero, but I haven't looked into it or even thought of trying, yet. My idea was more of having the ZeroSpy app running in this emergency situation and watching the voltage as I ride, and by the time I'm down to let's say 92v I know I absolutely better find an outlet in the next half mile or find a safe place to pull over and call a tow.
From what research I have done it seems there's still multiple miles of city riding left at 95v, maybe even a bit of interstate riding, but no concrete answers on how much. Plus when you're looking at such a narrow band of voltage range compared to the entire pack charge range small variables like careful acceleration between person to person plus temperature and road incline all can have dramatic effects.

Essentially you're trying to figure out how to calculate VSOC. I assume if that was easy Zero would have done it for us by now.

[victor6.7y]

My idea was more of having the ZeroSpy app running in this emergency situation and watching the voltage as I ride, and by the time I'm down to let's say 92v I know I absolutely better find an outlet in the next half mile or find a safe place to pull over and call a tow.
From what research I have done it seems there's still multiple miles of city riding left at 95v, maybe even a bit of interstate riding, but no concrete answers on how much. Plus when you're looking at such a narrow band of voltage range compared to the entire pack charge range small variables like careful acceleration between person to person plus temperature and road incline all can have dramatic effects.

At the start i was a bit worried that you were taking shortcuts in trying to understand the voltage of the BMS. But it sounds like you have an good understanding of it. 
I guess in the best way is to test it in real live to see if all is behaving as you expect it. and get some experience with determining the emergency range. I think you will be fine.

I am a bit lazy,

• When I have 3% left, I will want to get away from the highway as fast as possible. (not by driving fast cuz that will drain the battery  )
• When the battery percentage is 0% I assume I have < than 10 km left. This is the point where I start to panic and definitely want to find a charging station.
• The moment my range indicator jumps to 0 km, I assume I will have 4 km left.

Oh and I to catch the moment where i can see 1% battery left on my display. So far I always see it jump from 2% to 0% 

[Crissa]

Zeros don't like showing several SoC levels ending in 1.

-Crissa

[Gains]

It also differs from one bms to another. If you ride together with two the same zeros, one will loose soc faster than the other one in the higher % , but at the end they will end at 0%  very close to each other. I think the only way to know , is to test it on your bike.

[gt13013]

I also think that the max and min voltages depend on the firmware. Some of us experienced a different behavior of the bike after firmware upgrade.
It means that the results obtained with your bike will be hardly comparable to other bikes.

Attached you will find my report of the only 100% to 0% test that I have made with my 2016 FXS with 6.5 kWh battery, including logs, dash pictures, and Zero Voltage reports.
Note that I have kept my original 2016 firmware that works fine.

[Kappi]

Gt13013, how did your bike manage a 3mV cell balance at 0% SOC?

[Richard230]

Gt13013, how did your bike manage a 3mV cell balance at 0% SOC?

That is a good question.    When I rode my 2018 Zero S with PT down to an indicated "00" cell balance was 20-23 mA, although it quickly changed to 10-11 mA upon being plugged in. And that was on relatively new batteries that were well balanced before I started the ride. The only time i see 3mV cell balance is after my pack is fully charged and the OBC has turned off after balancing the cells.

[gt13013]

Gt13013, how did your bike manage a 3mV cell balance at 0% SOC?

That is simple: the Cell Balance indication of Zero Voltage App is completely wrong, at least for my bike, and it has been reported by several other users. I use Zero Voltage for voltage only!