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[herculeesjr]

Thanks for all the great info you guys. I really appreciate it. After work today I'm going to pull out the on-board charger communication plug and find the pins for on-board charger attached and on-board charger enable to see if either have 5v on them. I doubt I'll find 5v as I suspect the MBB is damaged, but hopefully I'll be lucky. Then whether or not I find 5v on them I'll next check those two wires at the MBB plug (possibly remove them from the connector without cutting if that is possible). Do you think it would be wise if I DON'T find 5v on those pins to try jumping them to CAN ground and see if that clears the issue? My thought is maybe if there's no 5v there, meaning I'm not at risk of shorting something out, then I could try connecting it to a known good 5v ground and see if that does something.

[Auriga]

I just noticed you have a 2017. Some of the 2017/early 2018 MBBs have a known issue where the pullup/pulldown is weak on that pin. With the charger present, usually people get the charge light staying on forever, but key cycling the bike fixes it. Without it the pin floats. 2017s with those MBBs are the only ones that shouldn't have the on board charger removed.

Replacing the onboard or replacing the MBB(Zero did fix it in a later part revision) with a new one should correct this.

Good luck!

[herculeesjr]

I just noticed you have a 2017. Some of the 2017/early 2018 MBBs have a known issue where the pullup/pulldown is weak on that pin. With the charger present, usually people get the charge light staying on forever, but key cycling the bike fixes it. Without it the pin floats. 2017s with those MBBs are the only ones that shouldn't have the on board charger removed.

Replacing the onboard or replacing the MBB(Zero did fix it in a later part revision) with a new one should correct this.

Good luck!

Well I'm happy to hear this is possibly simply a bit of software bugginess not liking the charger being removed than hardware being fried. So minus replacing the MBB, do you think installing a wire/diode from CAN-ground on the on-board charger connector to the charger enabled pin on the same connector would solve this issue?
My assumption is installing a wire would pull the pin back to low and fix the issue, but then the charge tank would have issues not being able to pull the pin high (or worse, damage the charge tank if I tried with said wire installed), so I'm thinking a diode between the two connectors would solve the issue by pulling the pin low, but allowing the charge tank to still pull it high and not short the CAN-ground to +5v. Sound like I'm on the right path? I'm going to try it with a wire when I get home today, but I won't use the charge tank with it installed.

[Auriga]

Well a wire would cause bad things if you try to charge with it present(as you mentioned). A diode would either not allow the pin to discharge its capacitance or be no better than the wire.

If I were going to try this, I would use a 100k or so resistor between the CAN Ground and the enable line. Zeros have a lot of grounds, but pin 18(EN) and 5(CAN GND) on the 40 way(MBB side) traced to the charger connector with a resistor should work.

Obviously be careful, as doing the wrong thing will damage either the mbb or charge tank.

[herculeesjr]

Well a wire would cause bad things if you try to charge with it present(as you mentioned). A diode would either not allow the pin to discharge its capacitance or be no better than the wire.

If I were going to try this, I would use a 100k or so resistor between the CAN Ground and the enable line. Zeros have a lot of grounds, but pin 18(EN) and 5(CAN GND) on the 40 way(MBB side) traced to the charger connector with a resistor should work.

Obviously be careful, as doing the wrong thing will damage either the mbb or charge tank.

I've made progress! A diode between pin 13 (orange wire with black trace, labeled OB_CHARGER_REF, a verified 5v ground) and pin 11 (gray with purple trace, labeled OB_CHARGER_ATTACHED) on the on-board charger connector shut the dash off and opened the battery contactor. I then tested by turning the key on, starts up like normal, put the kickstand up and disabled the kill switch, I get the green ready light without having to roll the bike, rode around the block, put the kickstand down and enabled the kill switch it leaves ready mode and no charging light or "0:00" pops up on the dash. Turning the key off I see "0:00" show up for about one second but then the contactor opens and everything shuts off. I can't remember if that's normal or not, but it works.
So this has fixed it thinking it's charging (knock on wood) but will possibly cause unknown issues with the charge tank as we've both been talking about. My EVSE cord isn't here yet but when it comes in later today I will remove the diode, connect the EVSE charger to charge, and monitor pin 11 to see if it goes high/has +5v. I want to test this since no schematic I've found shows charge tank wiring and thus I'm not sure the charge tank even uses this wire. Unless you have a secret schematic showing it does? Then I'll disconnect the EVSE, reinstall the diode (I don't have any resistors with me right now) and see if all is happy with the bike still.
Can you explain why you would recommend a resistor over a diode? I'm pretty proficient with electrical, but I'm no pro. I picked up diodes on my way home because I was thinking "I don't want +5v to hit a ground wire, that'd be a short, a diode blocks voltage from going one direction, so I must want that".

[DonTom]

Can you explain why you would recommend a resistor over a diode? I'm pretty proficient with electrical, but I'm no pro. I picked up diodes on my way home because I was thinking "I don't want +5v to hit a ground wire, that'd be a short, a diode blocks voltage from going one direction, so I must want that"

You don't have to worry about shorts after 100K ohm, current will be way too low to do any damage to anything after that much resistance. 5DVC  to ground with 100K ohm is much like nothing being grounded.

-Don-  Cold Springs Valley, NV

[Auriga]

The Charge Enable pin on the MBB is an input, meaning it has a high impedance and current won't flow into it, but we can still read the voltage. High Impedance pins will float, meaning they could be high or low randomly depending on whether charge builds up internally or noise couples in or what have you. Let's say you hook up a diode with the cathode towards the 5V signal pin. If the ENABLE is driven high, current won't flow through the diode and short. But if the pin floats high erroneously, it won't discharge the excess capacitance across the diode to GND(now your pin is falsely high). If you put the cathode on GND, then it functions a lot like a wire when the ENABLE is driven high, causing a short, but pulls down the ENABLE pin when it isn't.

Pullup or pulldown resistors of 10k ohms or more are required on input pins to make sure the input pin is always in a known state. For a pulldown, if  the ENABLE is driven high, a small amount of current will flow through the resistor(5 milliamps, definitely not shorted), but the input pin will see 5V. If its not driven or driven low, there will be a direct connection for the pin to GND, ensuring the pin is LOW. Most logic signals can provide somewhere around 20mA or so, but to be safe using a 100k brings you to 0.05mA. You could chose the math for an intermediate valye, and I don't know how much current the microcntroller they're using can provide, but I'd say 1mA or below is a very safe bet.

TLDR: A diode will either not allow the pin to be pulled down or function close to a wire and not work properly when powered. A resistor will work in all conditions.

As for the schematic, I'm a dealer, so I have access to Zero's documentation. But I am not allowed to share it. That pin is common to both chargers.

https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/pull-up-resistors/all <- This is for a pullup, but the principal is the same for pulldowns
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Pull-up_resistors,_high_impedance_pins,_and_open_collector_buses

[herculeesjr]

Thanks guys for all the detailed info. It has refreshed my mind a bit on this subject and I'm understanding now why to use a resistor instead of a diode. I went back out to Radio Shack and got a 0.5w 100k ohm resistor and installed it in place of the diode. I ran the bike from ~80% all the way down to 6%. I swear once you hit 10% the Energizer bunny kicks in because it took forever to get the battery under 10% and I was tired of riding by 7% and went back home. Turned the key off, still no issues, went and unboxed my EVSE charger, turned the bike on, plugged charger in, turned bike off, EVSE shows charging at 12.1a (120v). It's rated for 16a at 120v but I'm assuming that 12a is the bikes max at 120v.
So it appears that this problem is solved. All that is left is coming up with some sort of enclosure for the bare on-board charger connector with a resistor hanging off of it.
Also can anyone explain why if the charge tank uses this same pin, why the bike has to be keyed on to start the charging? It seems like since it uses this pin it's capable of "waking" the bike, but obviously I'm missing something.

[Crissa]

You went to Radio Shack?

-Crissa

[herculeesjr]

You went to Radio Shack?

-Crissa

Yup, Tennessee has quite a few still. Not as many as they used to, but I have one five minutes from my house and like... four or five within half an hour ride.

[DonTom]

You went to Radio Shack?

-Crissa

The shack is back!

I also went to a Radio Shack. Last year in Payson, AZ. But the new Radio Shacks are different. Each operates independently from the others and often stock much different  stuff from the others.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

Man, how nice!

-Crissa

[herculeesjr]

I had to pull the logs and waste time scrolling just to share this beautiful snip.

Code: [Select]

06896     04/26/2021 11:29:32   Calex 720W Charger 0 Disconnected   
 06897     04/26/2021 11:29:32   Calex 1200W Charger 1 Disconnected   
 06898     04/26/2021 11:29:32   DEBUG: Module scheme changed from Charging mode to Stopped mode   
 06899     04/26/2021 11:29:32   DEBUG: Module mode Change Does Not Require Disconnect   
 06900     04/26/2021 11:29:32   INFO:  Disabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 06901     04/26/2021 11:29:32   INFO:  Disabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 06902     04/26/2021 11:29:32   Power Off                  Onboard Charger
 06903     04/26/2021 11:29:32   Sevcon Turned Off
Again I really appreciate everyone's help in saving me here!

[Auriga]

Thanks guys for all the detailed info. It has refreshed my mind a bit on this subject and I'm understanding now why to use a resistor instead of a diode. I went back out to Radio Shack and got a 0.5w 100k ohm resistor and installed it in place of the diode. I ran the bike from ~80% all the way down to 6%. I swear once you hit 10% the Energizer bunny kicks in because it took forever to get the battery under 10% and I was tired of riding by 7% and went back home. Turned the key off, still no issues, went and unboxed my EVSE charger, turned the bike on, plugged charger in, turned bike off, EVSE shows charging at 12.1a (120v). It's rated for 16a at 120v but I'm assuming that 12a is the bikes max at 120v.
So it appears that this problem is solved. All that is left is coming up with some sort of enclosure for the bare on-board charger connector with a resistor hanging off of it.
Also can anyone explain why if the charge tank uses this same pin, why the bike has to be keyed on to start the charging? It seems like since it uses this pin it's capable of "waking" the bike, but obviously I'm missing something.

I think to wake the bike up the charger attach signal needs to be toggled, and Zero didn't make it available to the charge tank/accessory charge port on the older models. The MBB hibernates, and if it hibernates, it won't detect charge enable.The FST bikes with charge tank to not need the bike to be keyed on to start charging.

Glad everything worked out for you!

[herculeesjr]

Another question for you all. I plan on cutting out the connector from the fried charger, soldering the resistor onto it, then sealing it somehow. Maybe dipping it in resin or something similar to seal everything permanently. Might go crazy with the wife's hot glue gun.
My question is should I also install a resistor between pin 13 (OB_CHARGER_REF(erence)) and pin 12 (OB_CHARGER_EN(abled)). So basically one resistor between pin 13 and pin 11 (OB_CHARGER_ATTACHED), and one resistor between pin 13 and pin 12 (OB_CHARGER_ENABLED).
I'm not experiencing any issues with a resistor only between 13 and 11, but from looking at it it sounds like one should be on 13 and 12 too just to be safe?