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[herculeesjr]

I've attached the MBB and BMS bin files. I have a 2017 DS ZF13.0 with charge tank. The onboard charger went up in smoke on Friday 4-23 and I uninstalled it from the bike. Didn't cut any wires or go ripping things out, didn't see anything damaged, just completely removed it from the bike per the directions ( https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Calex_Charger_Replacement ). I still have the charge tank which is working and can charge the bike (I tested Friday night 4-23 with the on-board charger removed at a free public EVSE charger, went from 80% to 95% and the charge station shut off), so I ordered an EVSE charger cord to be able to charge at home through the charge tank which will be here Monday 4-26.
The problem is I can get on the bike, go for a ride, then stop and put the kickstand down and/or flip the kill switch then the charging light comes on for a second and goes out, and the time to charge "0:00" pops up on the dash. At this point you can turn the bike off and it still thinks it's charging showing "0:00" on the dash, you can put the kickstand up and try to ride but the throttle is disabled because it thinks it's charging and you don't get the green ready "arrow". So you can't ride. I tried both BMS software and hardware reset, you can hear the contactor open when it resets but then after a couple seconds you hear it close again and the charging "0:00" pops back up on the dash again. (On 4-25 I tried unplugging the two MBB connectors, waiting 30 seconds, and reinstalling. The bike almost instantly closes the contactor and goes back into charge mode.)
I've found that if I push the bike a few feet it still shows the charging "0:00" on the dash but I get the green ready arrow and can ride it fine then. Which saved my butt as I was able to get back home without calling for a tow. Stopping at lights or anything doesn't make the green ready light turn off, I have to be stopped and hit the kill switch or put the kickstand down, then the green ready light turns off, charging light briefly comes on, and I won't be able to run the bike again without lifting the kickstand and pushing the bike a couple feet.
I'm just feeling... like I imagine someone feels after losing it big at a casino. I spent about $8k for this bike, bought plenty of accessories and things for it, finally had it all ready to go out for some nice riding this weekend, it had no issues and is in great shape, and now I'm pretty sure it's going to need some serious repairs. All before I could really even go out and ride it. I didn't buy it from a dealership I bought it private party, so there's no returning it for a refund, and I'm not going to ask the guy for my money back even if that was an option. I'm just defeated. Truly defeated.
Can anyone look at these logs or provide some suggestions on what is wrong with my bike and what I can try to fix it? I don't want to have to sell this bike at a huge loss, I just wanted to get back into riding again and enjoy it. Right now the bike is just sitting here not turning off completely.

[mdjak1]

I've got a 2017 FXS that is relatively new to me.   Soon after I bought it, I was backing it out of my garage and I turned the bike on while moving backwards, kickstand up.  When I was at the point where I could go forward the bike wouldn't react to the throttle.  The green light wasn't lit.   Nothing.  Then I moved forward a foot or so under the power of my feet, I heard the relay click and the bike was ready to go. 

I don't know if this is normal or I have some issue but it sounds kind of like your situation with the exception of the time to charge on the instruments.  It is like the bike doesn't like to be moving when it is switched on. 

[herculeesjr]

Just an update: I went out and removed the seat to see if a USB OBD adapter I had would work to try rebooting the MBB (it didn't connect, OBD adapter issues) and realized the two wiring connectors for the MBB were right there. So I decided to unplug them both and wait thirty seconds then plug it back in. It instantly went back into charging mode "0:00". So no luck there with a poor man's attempted MBB restart. I was hoping "restarting" the MBB would clear something out and reset it.
Without any other suggestions I'm now planning on getting a 120 ohm resistor to connect to the CAN low and high pins on the on-board charger connector to see if the CAN bus is having termination issues from the lack of charger. If that fails and I don't have any new suggestions I'll just have to throw out more money and have the dealer diagnose it. (Not going to try this now, seeing as there's no CAN errors in the logs.)

[Crissa]

Sounds like whatever it uses to know the charger status is fused closed.

I wonder if unplugging the charger would work?

-Crissa

[herculeesjr]

Sounds like whatever it uses to know the charger status is fused closed.

I wonder if unplugging the charger would work?

-Crissa

Like unplug the charge tank? I'm not seeing it show up in the logs, but I could still give it a try tomorrow. In the logs the charge tank shows up as

Code: [Select]

06068     04/23/2021 17:10:55   Throttle Disabled:         Kill Sw,     
 06069     04/23/2021 17:10:56   DEBUG: Module scheme changed from Running mode to Stopped mode   
 06070     04/23/2021 17:10:56   DEBUG: Module mode Change Does Not Require Disconnect   
 06071     04/23/2021 17:11:15   Unknown Charger 6 Connectedwhen plugged in to charge. However when the bike "thinks" it's charging but not this shows in the logs:

Code: [Select]

06590     04/25/2021 10:34:07   Throttle Disabled:         Kill Sw,     
 06591     04/25/2021 10:34:07   DEBUG: Module scheme changed from Running mode to Stopped mode   
 06592     04/25/2021 10:34:07   DEBUG: Module mode Change Does Not Require Disconnect   
 06593     04/25/2021 10:34:36   Disarmed                   PackTemp: h 19C, l 17C, PackSOC: 78%, Vpack:109.704V, MotAmps:   0, BattAmps:   0, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  45C, CtrlTemp:  28C, AmbTemp:  16C, MotRPM:   0, Odo:22040km
 06594     04/25/2021 10:35:13   Calex 720W Charger 0 Connected   
 06595     04/25/2021 10:35:13   Calex 1200W Charger 1 Connected   
 06596     04/25/2021 10:35:13   DEBUG: Module scheme changed from Stopped mode to Charging mode   
 06597     04/25/2021 10:35:13   DEBUG: Module mode Change Does Not Require Disconnect   
 06598     04/25/2021 10:35:13   INFO:  Enabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 06599     04/25/2021 10:35:13   INFO:  Enabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 06600     04/25/2021 10:35:23   Charging                   PackTemp: h 19C, l 17C, AmbTemp: 16C, PackSOC: 78%, Vpack: 109.62V, BattAmps:   0, Mods: 01, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 06601     04/25/2021 10:35:28   Key Off
So it seems to think the Calex charger is still installed on the bike and powered on. Which from what I understand means there's something wrong with the CAN bus I think. Since I've soft and hard reset the BMS and MBB. I'm almost tempted to look up how to disconnect the battery and just let the whole bike sit dead for a day.

[Crissa]

Sounds like whatever it uses to know the charger status is fused closed.

I wonder if unplugging the charger would work?

Like unplug the charge tank?

Maybe?

The charge tank and obc wake up the mbb with a connection.  The mbb clearly thinks it's still getting that signal... usually when you remove the obc you have to 'key on' (I think it's Richard who has a bike stuck like this?) to get the mbb to see that it's plugged in and tell the contactors to close.

I think.

We're trying to eliminate possible points of failure, right?  See which of these boxes or wires the fault is in.

-Crissa

[Richard230]

Sounds like whatever it uses to know the charger status is fused closed.

I wonder if unplugging the charger would work?

Like unplug the charge tank?

Maybe?

The charge tank and obc wake up the mbb with a connection.  The mbb clearly thinks it's still getting that signal... usually when you remove the obc you have to 'key on' (I think it's Richard who has a bike stuck like this?) to get the mbb to see that it's plugged in and tell the contactors to close.

I think.

We're trying to eliminate possible points of failure, right?  See which of these boxes or wires the fault is in.

-Crissa

My situation is that after reaching a full charge with the OBC, if I wait more than 10 minutes to pull the 120V plug, the steady charging light will stay on and I have to turn on the ignition key, wait for the click and then turn it off. That will result in the green charging light going out. But my irritation doesn't sound anything like herculeesjr's problem. He has a much worse problem for which I have no idea what to do next, except possibly to reconnect the OBC cords and see what happens then. Probably nothing if the OBC is toast, but it might be worth a try just to see if anything happens.

[herculeesjr]

Sounds like whatever it uses to know the charger status is fused closed.

I wonder if unplugging the charger would work?

Like unplug the charge tank?

Maybe?

The charge tank and obc wake up the mbb with a connection.  The mbb clearly thinks it's still getting that signal... usually when you remove the obc you have to 'key on' (I think it's Richard who has a bike stuck like this?) to get the mbb to see that it's plugged in and tell the contactors to close.

I think.

We're trying to eliminate possible points of failure, right?  See which of these boxes or wires the fault is in.

-Crissa

Sounds good. I'll be looking into it tomorrow. I can't find a wiring schematic for the Gen2 with Calex charger, but I did find one for a 2016 FX that may end up useful ( https://zeromanual.com/wiki/2016_X-Platform_Wiring_Diagram ) along with info on what wire does what and at what voltage for the Calex charger wiring ( https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Calex_Charger/Connections ). So my first course of action, since it'll be easier to access, will be to see if these wires have voltage on them at the MBB connection and on-board charger connections and if I can find a way to disconnect them. If that fails there's zero info to be found on the charge tank wiring but I can remove the tank cover and just start disconnecting low voltage connectors to see what happens.

[herculeesjr]

My situation is that after reaching a full charge with the OBC, if I wait more than 10 minutes to pull the 120V plug, the steady charging light will stay on and I have to turn on the ignition key, wait for the click and then turn it off. That will result in the green charging light going out. But my irritation doesn't sound anything like herculeesjr's problem. He has a much worse problem for which I have no idea what to do next, except possibly to reconnect the OBC cords and see what happens then. Probably nothing if the OBC is toast, but it might be worth a try just to see if anything happens.

My bike did the same, before the on-board charger literally went up in smoke. The on-board charger would fully charge the bike and when you unplug it the charged light stays on. Which I read somewhere in the service manual is normal for 2016 and newer models.

[Auriga]

If you can find the 40 way MBB connector,(one of the two big connectors to the MBB) the charge enable signal is 5V, shared between the charge tank/onboard charger and is between pins 18 and 5. HIGH is charge enabled, so it seems likely that either the charge tank or onboard charger is generating it.

Or the MBB's detection across those pins is bad and you need a new MBB.

Far more often the chargers fail and don't provide that signal. I have yet to see a bike produce that signal all the time, since it requires voltage, but I guess you never know.

[MVetter]

Far more often the chargers fail and don't provide that signal. I have yet to see a bike produce that signal all the time, since it requires voltage, but I guess you never know.

If the contactor isn't opening there's gonna be voltage. The problem is the contactor won't open and let any capacitors drain.

edit- and I've seen this. A fair amount of times.

[Crissa]

edit- and I've seen this. A fair amount of times.

If you've seen this, then which component is upset?  Is there a way to make it less upset?

-Crissa

[DonTom]

If you've seen this, then which component is upset?  Is there a way to make it less upset?

-Crissa

Contactor could be melted closed.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Auriga]

If you've seen this, then which component is upset?  Is there a way to make it less upset?

-Crissa

Contactor could be melted closed.

-Don-  Reno, NV

Far more often the chargers fail and don't provide that signal. I have yet to see a bike produce that signal all the time, since it requires voltage, but I guess you never know.

If the contactor isn't opening there's gonna be voltage. The problem is the contactor won't open and let any capacitors drain.

edit- and I've seen this. A fair amount of times.

I hate to argue with you, but the charge enable pin is 5V and does not go through the contactor. Pack voltage is not involved.  It comes from either the onboard or the charge tank. Zero's dealer service schematics confirm this. That's the only way the bike toggles into charge mode. We've also fixed bikes with welded contactors, and the bike will detect that. The BMS will fail self test if the contactor is welded, not keep the bike in charge mode and allow you to ride.And the logs will show that. It's one of the core safety features.

You can also see it in his logs here: MbbChgEn: Yes

If you want to check the contactor, measure the voltage on the two large pins on the quick charge port with the bike off and charge cord unplugged. If there's no pack voltage, its not welded.

To be honest, I suspect the MBB is damaged and needs to be replaced, but measuring the voltage as I previously mentioned would prove it. Or the pulldown on that one pin is defective/weak, and the pin is floating high. Removing the onboard charger after it broke may have removed the pulldown responsible for keeping it working. This is probably pretty rare, as I've never seen or heard of it failing in this way before, and I've fixed a lot of Zeros.

[MVetter]

Thank god people with giant brains are on the case. User Auriga has resolved the issues. Zero's dealer service schematics confirm this.


You're in good hands, people.