Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[TheRan]

-- Curb weight of 200lbs / 91kg sounds low for something that's supposed to withstand 130mph; I'd expect more like 140-150kg. Unless it were made of titanium 

Where did you get the 130mph from? It tops out at 80mph, that would be a bit sketchy on such a light bike but not ridiculous, and with the big hole and being a smaller bike side wind won't as big an issue.

-- No mention of payload

With it having no pillion or storage provisions I don't think they really need to state one. If someone is so heavy that payload capacity is something they need to check when buying a bike they shouldn't be riding a bike that weighs less than them and only has 14kW.

-- 8kW motor . 14.5 KW sounds a bit high for peak, unless it's for a few seconds.

8kW will be what it can sustain indefinitely without overheating and probably with a low SoC. The peak power will be with a fully charged battery and could be for 10 seconds or a few minutes, but whatever it is I don't think it's an unreasonable amount more than the sustained output. Essentially it's going to cruise at a steady speed like an 8kW bike but accelerate like a 14kW one (for example overtaking or getting up to speed, which only takes a few seconds).

-- 80 mph sounds optimistic for a 8kW motor, esp. with no provision for aero. I'd believe 60-65, which is enough for most commuting use.

Top speed will being with peak power. Zero actually does it better by giving both a max short period speed as well as a max sustained speed.

-- Ditto 80mi range implies 50Wh/mile; even at low speeds, that sounds  too low compared to typical e-motorcycle values, unless it's at 25mph; it's much closer to the 10-20 Wh/mi that e-bicycles get.

Similar to the top speed the max range is going to be in the best case scenario, it's what all manufacturers do because they all want the best numbers. They don't say under what conditions it can do 80 miles so it's practically meaningless, instead we should just assume it will perform similarly to something like a 3.6kW/h FXS.

The power rating means it's rideable in the EU on an A1 license, which is significant -- that can be obtained at age 16, and it's also easier to get than an A2 let alone a full A license.

I'm very glad they've rated the continuous power output which is what electric bikes are rated for in the EU for licence restriction, I just hope that they've done it in a way which is adequate for the EU (such as using the right testing agency and testing under the right conditions).

[TheRan]

As for my opinion on the bike, I think it's great if they really can deliver it at that price. That will put it in line with the top end A1 class bikes (125cc) and should cruise at speeds you'd want to keep a 125 at while having better acceleration. The only additions I'd want to see are the choice of either a storage compartment or an extra battery where the hole is, and even with another 4kW/h it should still be cheaper than a 7.2kW/h Zero (although of course with less performance). Had this existed when I got my KTM Duke 125 I would have been very tempted to get this instead for just an extra £600 or so (perhaps even less with the government grant), and if they did an 8kW/h version where the extra 4kW/h could be added later on I might not have even wanted to get my Zero.

[gregj]

OK my take on this.
First glance looked promising ( that happens so often).
ICE motored only need 10HP continuous to do over 100kph ( I have ad enough 100/125cc single fourstrokes to know that is definitely true), so if the 8kw is true that is over 10HP so it will definitely do over 100. When to take into account that the HP curve on those ICE motors has started to dip at over 100kph I am suggesting around 70MPH from an electric as the torque doesn't tail off. Remember that is unfaired. Fair this motorcycle and it will have a better top speed and range. One of the first things I would do.
It has a Hub motor. For me that is a turn off (no pun). That massive unsprung weight is an uncontrollable rear wheel waiting to happen when normal conditions are exceeded ( read accident). When you add the Emotorcycle complete lack of recognition of the development of rear suspension by fitting a single pivot rear end trying to control that much unsprung weight with a low mass sprung weight , you have  serious handling issues.
The mid "gap" of the frame is a no issue for me as I would make a couple of carbonfibre panels to use as a storage space, that would act as a place to load you knees when cornering.
Having said all that, it IS a "supercommuter" bracket bike that I have been searching for at a " supposed" price that would make it a viable alternative to an ICE bike.
The rear lack of current design ( sorry again) rear end and the massive insprung weight there would be the spoiler for me. I am, first and formost, convinced that the order of priority for a supercommuter is tyres, brakes, suspension, weight and finally motor ( speed and range). That would help keep you alive on what is still a motorcycle.

[Richard230]

Besides unsprung weight, what is it like trying to keep a hub motor cool when it is putting out maximum power while traveling at high speed and uphill? 

[wavelet]

-- Curb weight of 200lbs / 91kg sounds low for something that's supposed to withstand 130mph; I'd expect more like 140-150kg. Unless it were made of titanium 

Where did you get the 130mph from? It tops out at 80mph, that would be a bit sketchy on such a light bike but not ridiculous, and with the big hole and being a smaller bike side wind won't as big an issue.

Oops, typo. Should have been 130km/h (=~80mph), me thinking natively in metric 

-- No mention of payload

With it having no pillion or storage provisions I don't think they really need to state one. If someone is so heavy that payload capacity is something they need to check when buying a bike they shouldn't be riding a bike that weighs less than them and only has 14kW.

Normally I wouldn't care about it, but as  a 200lbs curb weight sounds quite iffy to me strength-wise, I want to know how close to GVWR riding it will be.
Many bikes are decidedly dangerous when that's exceeded (I know from personal experience). Again, wouldn't have worried with a 30mph moped, but at the claimed top speed it's more of an issue.

-- 8kW motor . 14.5 KW sounds a bit high for peak, unless it's for a few seconds.

8kW will be what it can sustain indefinitely without overheating and probably with a low SoC. The peak power will be with a fully charged battery and could be for 10 seconds or a few minutes, but whatever it is I don't think it's an unreasonable amount more than the sustained output. Essentially it's going to cruise at a steady speed like an 8kW bike but accelerate like a 14kW one (for example overtaking or getting up to speed, which only takes a few seconds).

Maybe; we may need to wait for the first full reviews for that.
Maybe the better question is what's the design cruising speed, and how long it takes to get to that.

-- 80 mph sounds optimistic for a 8kW motor, esp. with no provision for aero. I'd believe 60-65, which is enough for most commuting use.

Top speed will being with peak power. Zero actually does it better by giving both a max short period speed as well as a max sustained speed.

Agreed; in the various metro regions I've had to commute in, in several countries, sustained 70mph with a 75-80mph spurt would actually be ideal if a motorway stretch is part of the route.

-- Ditto 80mi range implies 50Wh/mile; even at low speeds, that sounds  too low compared to typical e-motorcycle values, unless it's at 25mph; it's much closer to the 10-20 Wh/mi that e-bicycles get.

Similar to the top speed the max range is going to be in the best case scenario, it's what all manufacturers do because they all want the best numbers. They don't say under what conditions it can do 80 miles so it's practically meaningless, instead we should just assume it will perform similarly to something like a 3.6kW/h FXS.

Yup (-:

As for my opinion on the bike, I think it's great if they really can deliver it at that price. That will put it in line with the top end A1 class bikes (125cc) and should cruise at speeds you'd want to keep a 125 at while having better acceleration. The only additions I'd want to see are the choice of either a storage compartment or an extra battery where the hole is, and even with another 4kW/h it should still be cheaper than a 7.2kW/h Zero (although of course with less performance). Had this existed when I got my KTM Duke 125 I would have been very tempted to get this instead for just an extra £600 or so (perhaps even less with the government grant), and if they did an 8kW/h version where the extra 4kW/h could be added later on I might not have even wanted to get my Zero.

Agreed. If they can do it, it'll really push the market beyond the current 30mph urban mopeds.

Do you know if the Evoke Urban S / Urban Classic are getting any traction in the UK?
They're essentially range-wise like the Zero FX 7.2, but power 19kW like the ZF3.6, at a US$8K price.
They officially launched a couple of years ago, but I can't find any signs that they're actually being sold, at least in the West.

I recall reading recently that they've started selling in the UK via a distributor called Amped Motorcycles.

[wavelet]

Besides unsprung weight, what is it like trying to keep a hub motor cool when it is putting out maximum power while traveling at high speed and uphill?

Good question. The Evoke I mentioned in the previous post also has a hub motor, and they claim a 11kW/19kW continuous/peak motor, max torque 86 ft-lbs, 0-60mph acceleration 6sec and top speed 80mph.
This has some discussion of the issues including heat dissipation.

[TheRan]

Normally I wouldn't care about it, but as  a 200lbs curb weight sounds quite iffy to me strength-wise, I want to know how close to GVWR riding it will be.
Many bikes are decidedly dangerous when that's exceeded (I know from personal experience). Again, wouldn't have worried with a 30mph moped, but at the claimed top speed it's more of an issue.

Like I said, unless you're actually obese or a body builder I wouldn't worry about it. Light weight doesn't mean it's weak, don't forget that it has a fairly small battery, hub motor, and a quite nifty machined aluminium frame. It's only 15kg lighter than a 3.6 FXS (part of that will be from the motor, belt, rear sprocket and part of the rear wheel weight, the greater suspension travel, and the extra padding on the seat) and that has a carry capacity of 379 pounds according to Zero. In fact they spec it as having a higher weight capacity than the 7.2 because of the weight saved off the battery. On the other hand if you look at a 7.2 DS versus a 14.4 DSR the DSR has 70 pounds greater capacity despite weighing 100 pounds more so evidently the available torque has an impact on how much the manufacturers say the bike can handle.

Do you know if the Evoke Urban S / Urban Classic are getting any traction in the UK?
They're essentially range-wise like the Zero FX 7.2, but power 19kW like the ZF3.6, at a US$8K price.
They officially launched a couple of years ago, but I can't find any signs that they're actually being sold, at least in the West.

I recall reading recently that they've started selling in the UK via a distributor called Amped Motorcycles.

I'd heard of them but didn't know they were available in the UK. Pricing is about £2.5k cheaper than a 7.2 Zero at £7.5k, which is about $10.2k so not quite as good a deal as in the US. Still pretty good though, you get faster charging than the Zero and maybe a tiny bit more range (but certainly not as much as Evoke claims) but more weight and less performance. I'm not sure if it's actually A1 class compliant though, although it technically is rated at 11kW continuous output neither Evoke nor Amped specifically state it's A1.

[Fran K]

OK
 take on this.
First glance looked promising ( that happens so often).
ICE motored only need 10HP continuous to do over 100kph ( I have ad enough 100/125cc single fourstrokes to know that is definitely true), so if the 8kw is true that is over 10HP so it will definitely do over 100. When to take into account that the HP curve on those ICE motors has started to dip at over 100kph I am suggesting around 70MPH from an electric as the torque doesn't tail off.

Don't electric motorcycles pretty much make max torque starting from a stop up until max hp is achieved then make max hp as rpm increases?  Torque dropping in the upper revs.

[DonTom]

Don't electric motorcycles pretty much make max torque starting from a stop up until max hp is achieved then make max hp as rpm increases?  Torque dropping in the upper revs.

See the charts here.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[TheRan]

OK
 take on this.
First glance looked promising ( that happens so often).
ICE motored only need 10HP continuous to do over 100kph ( I have ad enough 100/125cc single fourstrokes to know that is definitely true), so if the 8kw is true that is over 10HP so it will definitely do over 100. When to take into account that the HP curve on those ICE motors has started to dip at over 100kph I am suggesting around 70MPH from an electric as the torque doesn't tail off.

Don't electric motorcycles pretty much make max torque starting from a stop up until max hp is achieved then make max hp as rpm increases?  Torque dropping in the upper revs.

Pretty much. It takes a certain amount of power to produce max torque at a certain RPM, the amount of power increasing as the RPM rises. Once the power limit is reached (limited by the controller or battery) at that certain RPM torque begins to fall. As well as power input you also have power output which is just torque*RPM (to put it simply), so it closely follows the power input minus efficiency losses (which will vary a bit based on the RPM).

[Oldun]

Sorry, but any company that reproduces the Reliant Robin's layout in their lineup - even in mirror-image -

If you think that a three-wheeler with two up front is remotely similar to a three wheeler with two in back, well... One drives like a sports car, the other... doesn't.  At all.

-Crissa

Millions of people who drive Spyders, Rykers, T-Rexes and Slingshots would agree with that statement. 

Sure, fine, Ok, but you missed the fact that I was talking about looks not handling :-)

[caza]

Micah did an interview with Sondors about this bike over at Electrek.

https://electrek.co/2021/01/22/all-your-questions-answered-about-the-5k-sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle/

It answers some of our concerns, sidesteps others.

The most substantive pieces of info are that they are basically going to have a charge tank, power tank, and storage box for that hole in the frame. They also said they are working on the NHSTA process to make sure the bike is street legal.

Funny enough they said it won't include user adjustable settings because of "liability reasons" which is hilariously obvious BS.

[JaimeC]

Looks like I was right about that big open space in the frame.  They plan on having a locking storage case fill that spot and that makes PERFECT sense for a highway capable commuter!

In fact, since one of the guys involved formerly worked at Zero there are two other options for that space:  A "Power Tank" or a "Charge Tank."  Pretty much the same purpose served by that faux "tank" on the Generation 2 Zero models.

[shayan]

Looks like I was right about that big open space in the frame.  They plan on having a locking storage case fill that spot and that makes PERFECT sense for a highway capable commuter!

In fact, since one of the guys involved formerly worked at Zero there are two other options for that space:  A "Power Tank" or a "Charge Tank."  Pretty much the same purpose served by that faux "tank" on the Generation 2 Zero models.

Yep it's one of 3 things I suppose: A storage area, a 3kWh module or an L2 charger (maybe 3kW).
Here's some more on all that: https://electrek.co/2021/01/22/all-your-questions-answered-about-the-5k-sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle/

[Alan Stewart]

My understanding is that mounting the motor in the swing arm has been a common design pattern in the scooter market for many years. Obviously it must work for the intended use of those products. Therefore I don’t follow the concerns over the hub motor.  This isn’t intended for racing or off-road use.

So far Zero, Energica, etc. have not produced anything that sufficiently motivates me to buy my first electric motorcycle. If Alta had survived and produced the ST concept that might have happened. The Metacycle is attractive.