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Author Topic: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous  (Read 2364 times)

TheRan

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2020, 06:15:12 AM »

I wouldn't say the throttles do the same thing. The throttle on a Zero directly controls how much torque is generated (wheel or motor, doesn't matter). The throttle on a gas bike can change the torque but only indirectly. The only thing it does control directly is the amount of air and fuel put into the combustion chamber and the result of that is wildly variable. I like to think of it more like a suggestion, or tugging on the reigns of a horse (or whatever it is horse riders do). Perhaps the best analogy for twisting the throttle on an electric bike would be pressing down on the pedals of a bicycle, you have direct control over the amount and duration of force and nothing more or less.
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princec

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2020, 08:37:54 AM »

I'd say the throttle on an EV is a bit like what you might expect if you have a V12 engine in your bike.
This resource is endlessly useful when trying to talk about all this stuff:
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/torsional_excitation_from_piston_engines.htm

Cas :)
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Fran K

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2020, 11:41:29 AM »

Nice write up about the tire and spin up.  There is compression braking before the power pulse and a flywheel.  Coushioned drive line most likely as well.  It seems the KTM 690 has traction control from my internet search.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 11:46:22 AM by Fran K »
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Fran K

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2020, 11:55:42 AM »

I wouldn't say the throttles do the same thing. The throttle on a Zero directly controls how much torque is generated (wheel or motor, doesn't matter). The throttle on a gas bike can change the torque but only indirectly. The only thing it does control directly is the amount of air and fuel put into the combustion chamber and the result of that is wildly variable. I like to think of it more like a suggestion, or tugging on the reigns of a horse (or whatever it is horse riders do). Perhaps the best analogy for twisting the throttle on an electric bike would be pressing down on the pedals of a bicycle, you have direct control over the amount and duration of force and nothing more or less.

Have you experimented going from flat to hill and not changing throttle twist position?  It might behave like cruise control instead of constant torque.  I do not have a Zero but was quite surprised that my KTM held a steady 35 mph.  At 5 mph different.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 12:00:11 PM by Fran K »
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caza

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2020, 12:08:06 PM »

By comparison ICE bikes have varying degrees of friendliness ...
The Zero does exactly what you tell it to.  And you're used to a bike that doesn't do what you tell it... So you're okay with hitting that power band in the middle of a corner and sliding out?  Or stalling out with a slight misapplication of the clutch... But not okay with your misapplication of throttle doing exactly what the throttle should do?
This is exactly it! The throttle does exactly to tell it to do, if you gave it a bad input, that is nobodies fault but your own.
No, this is a useless fallacy of an argument. The problem is not what the throttle does, it is what the tyres do in reaction to the throttle. The throttle appears to do the same thing on the 70bhp Zero DSR and the 70bhp Duke 690 but the wheels are doing something very, very different.

I imagine most of the time when people are opening the throttle they are expecting the tyres to do what they did last time, that is, grip the road, and accelerate. They do not always do this. There are a huge number of variables, some of which will be in your perception, some of which won't, some of which may be in your perception but "just this one time you under/overestimated it".

Different engine torque characteristics will give different results over different grip situations and different margins for error. The very best configuration is a single cylinder ICE engine, which has a margin of error and controllability so wide that almost anyone can act like a tit and enjoy themselves, as it loses traction for only some small percentage of the rolling distance of the tyre on each bang (despite making hugely more instantaneous torque than the EV - something like 800lb-ft), and with as such has such a degree of controllability you can entertain yourself for hours experimenting with how much you want it to slide.

The very worst configuration is the electric motor, which loses traction totally, completely, and instantly, on a knife edge, and can lose it at any point with equal probability on the circumference of the tyre as it rolls, and then will spin up instantly so as to not regain it until the rider is on their ear or possibly worse, snaps it shut causing it to similarly instantly regain traction and introduce the hapless rider to the high side. You can actually apply considerably greater acceleration on the 690 round a corner than the DSR because it maintains grip despite accelerating harder, and because you just don't have to worry about suddenly losing it. It really isn't fun trying to guess where the limit is when it's 0.1 degree of throttle and you're off.

Rather than glossing over this minor detail I am a bit surprised you're not strongly advocating for TC to be mandatory on EV bikes, in the same way that ABS is.

Cas :)

The throttle does the same thing every time. It puts torque to the rear wheel exactly how you tell it to.

Your wheel does not, and that is true no matter what the drivetrain is. Like you said there are a number of variables that effect your grip, from the tread on your tire to the road surface, condensation, temperature, weight on the bike, etc.

But you as a rider need to understand these variables and ride accordingly. The fact that your throttle is always going to give the same power to the rear wheel is actually empowering in that it takes several of those variables away that are present in the ICE drivetrain.

If you as the rider do not understand these variables and the risks involved when opening the throttle, you only have yourself to blame.

All you need is the self control to not tug on the throttle! You keep talking about being at the edge of traction where 0.1 degrees of the throttle will cause a crash, if that is the case then  you as the rider are riding way too close to the threshold. We're talking about public roads here, not the race track. If you're close enough to where 0.1 degrees is going to lose you traction, that is your own fault for riding way too aggressively for current conditions. You know the electric motor has torque across the rpm range, you know the throttle is sensitive and directly controls that torque. You shouldn't be "guessing" how much you can tug on it like you're playing a video game.

I'm in the states, ABS isn't mandated at all. But it's a good feature and I do think it's good that it's more and more common. TC is a good feature too and I do think the more bikes that have it the better. Do not mistake me advocating for riders understanding their own machine and riding within the machine and the riders limits as a dismissal of good safety tech.

But safety is a relative thing, we all take different risks. We can argue about what the right safety choices are until we are blue in the face, but the bottom line is that you are taking more of a risk getting on 2 wheels than someone who rides in a car, who is taking more risk than someone who takes public transit. People ride with no gear, sometimes even no helmets. Others are ATGATT, others go even further and wear the new airbag vests on their motorcycles.

We all choose our own level of safety and risk. All I'm saying is that if you ride an electric motorcycle without TC, and then blame the lack of TC on your full-throttle crash, you are doing yourself and your bike a disservice. Know what you ride, know the risks, and own your decisions.
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Crissa

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2020, 12:58:15 PM »

ICE bikes are death traps, and to see people advocating for lossy, poor-response, random-torque like gas bikes put out is baffling.

If you need to cling to the bike to ride it... What are you, a newbie like me?  Yeesh.

-Crissa
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ultrarnr

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2020, 03:44:21 PM »

So is there any organization out there that actually keeps track of the number of deaths related to lack of traction control and if so how do they compare to deaths attributed to alcohol use by riders and distracted drivers?
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princec

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2020, 05:56:39 PM »

Yes, at least the UK keeps a fairly close eye on it, and KSIs from loss of traction are no larger than KSIs from loss of control after braking before ABS, but the trick here is to be reactive and progressive thinking, not wait 20 years and then look at the statistics, throw hands in the air and say "oh EVs without TC are dangerous, who knew!" It was noted 30 years ago that loss of control during braking was causing accidents and fatalities (even amongst very experienced riders) and rather than saying "it's your fault, you're entirely to blame" the powers that be realised they could actually fix it with technology and legislation, and lo and behold, KSI statistics continue to fall because large classes of accidents just don't happen any more.

We can see there's a problem here, and the solution is surprisingly simple to implement - the tech is already there, it just needs legislative backing, just like ABS got.

Cas :)
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Frank

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2020, 06:52:52 PM »

If you want TC you can buy a modern sportbike that offers that feature.  If you want TC on a electric bike you're welcome to write manufacturers and request it.  The sensor technology may be there but I really don't think implementation is as straightforward as some of you may think.  And TC is no guarantee you won't slide out on a slippery surface, just as ABS is no guarantee you'll be able to stop in time.  These technologies don't improve traction.  Or, you can stop treating public roads as a racetrack and slow down a bit, especially in turns.

Modern tires are incredibly good but if we don't understand basic risks of sharing roadways with other vehicles, all the technology in the world can't help.  Maybe I'm getting older but there's an awful lot more people in the world now than there was when I started riding and an awful lot more vehicles.  Roads are in worse shape and drivers are more inattentive.  Want to go fast?  Pick your circumstances.  Want to go faster?  Head to the track.
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TheRan

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2020, 11:40:47 PM »

I wouldn't say the throttles do the same thing. The throttle on a Zero directly controls how much torque is generated (wheel or motor, doesn't matter). The throttle on a gas bike can change the torque but only indirectly. The only thing it does control directly is the amount of air and fuel put into the combustion chamber and the result of that is wildly variable. I like to think of it more like a suggestion, or tugging on the reigns of a horse (or whatever it is horse riders do). Perhaps the best analogy for twisting the throttle on an electric bike would be pressing down on the pedals of a bicycle, you have direct control over the amount and duration of force and nothing more or less.

Have you experimented going from flat to hill and not changing throttle twist position?  It might behave like cruise control instead of constant torque.  I do not have a Zero but was quite surprised that my KTM held a steady 35 mph.  At 5 mph different.
The speed should decrease as the Zero goes up hill and increase coming down, compared to riding on flat ground. The throttle position has a direct relation to the torque output, 50% throttle is 50% of maximum torque. What speed that percentage of torque results in depends on a few factors including the gradient of the road and wind resistance.
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caza

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2020, 12:17:58 AM »

We can see there's a problem here, and the solution is surprisingly simple to implement - the tech is already there, it just needs legislative backing, just like ABS got.

Cas :)

If we legislated away everything that included risk, all motorcycles would be illegal. There has to be a balance between common sense safety legislation and personal choice and responsibility.

Again, we can advocate for TC as a good safety feature while still advocating for responsible riders.

IIRC TC is harder to implement than ABS at this point. It's true that the tech exists and sensors are cheap, but it requires tuning to the individual bike and it is supposedly harder to implement on EV's because of the same torque characteristics we're talking about. This adds cost.

It's not a coincidence that cheaper, entry to mid level bikes tend to not have TC while higher end bikes do, it costs money! If we banned all non TC E-motos right now, there wouldn't be a single option under $20k. In the US there is only 1 ICE bike under 10K that has TC. Mandating TC at this point would price almost all new riders and lower income people out of the already struggling market.

ABS is more widely available on lower end bikes, partially because of EU laws, but mainly because it's much cheaper to implement and easier to transfer from bike to bike. In the US ABS can commonly found as a $500 option. The same is simply not true for TC, because it's much more complicated to implement than your dismissive "just software" comments give credit to.

Some new bikes have cornering ABS, should we ban all the bikes with plain-ol ABS?
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Richard230

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2020, 04:45:18 AM »

The 2020 KTM 390 Adventure has TC, but many people turn it off because it somehow cuts the bike's performance both on the highway and off road when the system is activated, according to a fellow that I know who used to have one of those bikes and recently sold it as it wasn't meeting his expectations.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

princec

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2020, 05:46:09 AM »

Bit of a gimmick on a single really. (Yes, my 690 has it, but as I say... gimmick)

Cas :)
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caza

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2020, 07:18:55 AM »

The 2020 KTM 390 Adventure has TC, but many people turn it off because it somehow cuts the bike's performance both on the highway and off road when the system is activated, according to a fellow that I know who used to have one of those bikes and recently sold it as it wasn't meeting his expectations.
This is exactly why mandating TC isn't going to automatically make us all safer.
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princec

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Re: WARNING - Zero lack of traction control makes it dangerous
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2020, 07:44:00 AM »

I think the fact it doesn't go as fast as he hoped when TC is on is maybe orthogonal to the discussion. (And also, bullshit, what is he expecting from a 390)
People moan about ABS lengthening stopping distances. It does. A very good rider can outperform it by a couple of metres. Sometimes. When it's warm and dry. After a few practice runs. For the rest of us, we're just glad that all bikes now all stop in 52 metres from 70mph, whether it's wet or not, whether the tyres are hot or not, whether the road is hot or not, whether we've panicked and grabbed the brake instead of squeezing, whether we went over a patch of sand or a bit of ice or a bit of diesel, without us falling off. Every single time.

Cas :)
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