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[SgtMickle]

I've seen a few posts from several years ago referencing this, but I wanted to bring it up again since it seems like a huge problem that more people should be talking about.

The Zero bikes are extremely powerful with very high torque (that's instantaneously available). With no traction control, they're prone to sliding out when given a lot of throttle, and even prone to highside crashes if the throttle is chopped mid-slide (see below for video examples). This differs from gas bikes with no TC, since a) the electric bikes generate much more torque than most such gas bikes, and b) the gas bikes build up torque gradually, rather than pumping it into the rear wheel instantaneously when the throttle is pinned like the zeroes do.

I fell victim to this recently - I was riding (seemingly perfectly straight!) on my 2021 SR, and when I pinned the throttle in sport mode, the bike just completely slid out from under me. I ended up in the hospital and the bike in the shop, and after it was repaired, I've kept it in eco mode (w/ reduced power) ever since. It seems like the bike can just lose traction from its own power, and it gives you absolutely nothing to protect against that.

Zero is selling death traps - to anyone considering, I'd strongly advise avoiding these bikes until they fix this. Go for an SR/S or SR/F, which do have TC, or choose another brand.

I'm very curious how many people this has already killed, since it seems to be a commonly reported occurrence among zeroers.

Here's some examples of this happening (you'll need to fix the spacing on the links):

Highside crash:
www . youtube.com/watch?v=fDtwUDnsHA0
www . youtube.com/watch?v=IhpA7Raj_Zc

"I only had it for three days... that is the first time I have ever crashed" (see 3:58):
www . youtube.com/watch?v=DPJyCjlYGXU

"I don't know what happened! ... It was just going in a straight line, and all of a sudden..." (see 17:16)
www . youtube.com/watch?v=QmSR0zuWubA&t=1036

Another:
www . youtube.com/watch?v=d1zcLltukUY

And then there was my own crash experience. Anyone else have something similar happen to them on a zero?

[TheRan]

I'd be surprised if there are many deaths (there's bound to be at least one) because it mainly happens at lower speeds. The funny thing is a decently powerful gas bike will actually have more peak torque at lower speeds, in first gear, than many electric bikes. However like you say that torque isn't instantaneous so the rider on the gas bike would need to rev the bike high and then drop the clutch to break traction (unless it's a particularly powerful bike), which I have seen many examples of.

I wouldn't say they're death traps, they're perfectly capable of being ridden safely (as safe as a bike can be) once you get the hang of it and dealing with a loss of traction becomes second nature. To a new rider, or one coming from a gas bike, they are indeed more likely to have an accident because they are more sensitive and this is the reason that everyone recommends lowering the power and gradually increasing it over time (and lowering it back down when the conditions require it).

I've only ever had one accident, a low side, and that was on my 125. That was also my only experience on gas bikes. I've been riding my DS a bit over a year now and I've spun up the rear wheel a fair few times (sometimes on purpose) but it's always been manageable. Part of that could be down to luck but I also know my throttle control and reactions have improved.

[Crissa]

I'm convinced they're only dangerous to gas-bike riders with decades under their belt, as they're the only ones I hear of ever doing this.

Nothing here isn't something that couldn't happen to a gas bike - you fall and the weight goes to the throttle and the wheel will spin up no matter what.  Same for going over a manhole cover or puddle.  You just let go of the throttle and you'll be fine.

I don't know that they're 'more likely' or 'death traps'.  Zero S and FX are sold as a trainer bike in the EU, and they're pretty tight when it comes to regulations.

-Crissa

[victor6.7y]

I don't think the Zero bikes are dead traps that need to be avoided.

I come from a Honda VTR 1000F, if you want to talk about death traps. But to be honest. In my opinion it is the driver that needs to learn to control the bike.


The Zero has an eco mode, so it has a “safe drive mode”. I can imagine it is dangerous to drive in sports mode when you usually drive in eco mode. I only have my bike for about 2 months now and I too went for a fully opened throttle in sport mode. And yes it was spinning like hell. Now I know I need to learn about opening the throttle responsibly. Learn how fast I can open it at different roads/ road conditions. (The dealer also warned me and asked me if I know how to handle a bike with a lot of torque.)


Traction control would probably prevent me from getting in dangerous situations when I do something wrong. This probably holds for any bike. So I think it would only be fair to avoid all bikes that do not have traction control.


The difference between the electric bike and a gas bike is the clutch in this situation. Where I would start spinning on my 1000f I would immediately pull the clutch (as I was taught at driving school.). By doing so my rear wheel would get a change to find grip with the road.
An electric bike does not have a clutch, so the only thing you could do is putting the throttle down to 0. If I am not wrong sports mode has no to little repetitive breaking when you put the throttle to 0. So it should be similar to pulling the clutch.

Summary of my opinion
-   It is possible to drive safely on a zero
-   I think the zero behaves similar to a bike with gas.
-   So if we would avoid bikes without traction control, we should avoid all the bikes. Not only the zero.

[ultrarnr]

Motorcycling isn't the safest activity that someone can participate in. Yes I understand and know about no traction control on Zero's. I wiped out several years ago at Deals Gap on my SR when the back tire broke lose when I pinned the throttle. Never thought of them as death traps and fixed the broken things, mainly right side foot peg and just kept riding. Lack of traction control isn't what you need to be worrying about on a Zero or any other motorcycle, its distracted drivers which I am sure are responsible for far more motorcyclist deaths.

[Crissa]

For the S platform, 'Sport' seems to be high torque high throttle regen low brake regen while 'Eco' is low torque, middle throttle/brake regen.

Personally, I ride with middle torque, low throttle, high brake.  But that can cause the rear tire to skid in wet for both high acceleration and heavy braking.  But otherwise, it's usually pretty safe.

I expect it to do the things it does, because I have always ridden that way.  But I don't expect a clutch to save me... Which may be the difference.  Heck, driving my (manual) car I wouldn't expect my clutch to save me if I spun the tires in a turn (which I've done, many a time).

-Crissa

[JaimeC]

This is a non-issue that keeps coming up and wouldn't be a problem if people LEARNED HOW TO RIDE PROPERLY!  For almost a hundred years not one single motorcycle came with any traction control beyond the rider's brain connected to the throttle.  Modern riders seem to have forgotten that the throttle has an INFINITE number of settings between no throttle and full throttle.  We should learn to use our God-given brains to read the road and identify the correct amount of throttle to apply in every situation.  Because of their electric motors, Zeros are EXCEPTIONALLY easy to ride this way, unlike the two-strokes of the old days that had very little torque until they suddenly came on pipe and had massive amounts of torque (ask anyone who owned the ORIGINAL Kawasaki H1 or a Yamaha RD350 about that).

Instead of handing over our decision making to computers (something a distressing number of our population is willing to do these days) we should be honing our skills to be better riders and not count on electronics and computers to save us from our own ineptness and stupidity.

This former MSF Rider Coach is stepping off his soapbox now.  Oh, and GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

[Richard230]

I have been riding motorcycles almost every day for the past 58 years and all but my current BMW RS did not have traction control. And only a couple came with ABS. I even special-ordered my BMW F650GS without ABS, as I have never needed it.

Back to Zeros:  I have been riding Zero motorcycles for 9 years, none with traction control and only my current Zero had ABS. During that time I have only spun the rear wheel once and that was a couple of years ago, was while leaned over on a sharp curve of a freeway on-ramp during damp conditions. The rear wheel spun up instantly, the rear of the bike shook violently and weaved from side to side for about a second. But I was able to recover quickly by shutting down the throttle until traction was regained. That lesson from the School of Hard Knocks, taught me a that you do have to be careful with the throttle while riding in possibly slippery traction conditions, especially when not completely upright. I have always thought that riding motorcycles required a lot of skill and experience to do it safely and that goes double when riding in traffic.

[NEW2elec]

Sorry you had a wreck  SgtMickle but I've got about 60k miles on two DS style Zeros and only a pile of sand from a washed out dirt road on the pavement and wet smooth concrete are the only two times I've ever had wheel spin.  Release the throttle and your fine.

Never wrecked and never even laid either one down.  Five years ago and new to riding motorcycles.

I'd say a dual sport tire is of course far less likely to spin up in the first place so that might be a recommended option for a new rider.

I've found an electric throttle to be an amazing level of speed control once you get used to it.
And until someone gets used to it stay in ECO mode and ride like it's more important to stay out of the hospital than prove what a badass rider they are.  They should be fine.

[princec]

The arguments against TC are very much like the arguments against ABS... that is, bullshit. All riders begin learning somewhere and continue learning throughout their riding careers and there is no reasonable argument to say that it is fine for your first mistake operating a control to make the bike accelerate also be the control that makes it crash without warning the first time you try it. It is backward, outdated thinking. These days engineers understand that we make things safe to use  because they were not safe in the first place. Given that the technology here is - for once - easily implemented at almost no cost (there is already an ABS sensor so no extra hardware is required, only software development), there aren't really any excuses.

Cas

[ESokoloff]

I'm convinced they're only dangerous to gas-bike riders with decades under their belt, as they're the only ones I hear of ever doing this.
..............

                     ^^^^^^^^^^^ This (to an extent)

I think that attributed to my 3 extreme rear end step out incidents, (as well as tire profile & in one incidence temperature).

On an ICE bike you “pin the throttle” & then back down as the engine “spools up” whereas on an BEV bike you incrementally ratchet up the power to the max needed for the given condition. 

It takes some time to reprogram the mind from ICE to BEV. 

Yes, traction control would be beneficial during that learning curve as well as a nice safety afterwards. 

[Crissa]

Traction Control and ABS aren't perfect, but they're a buddy system with your riding.  They won't make you a safe rider if you weren't.  But they'll help a safer rider ride to the best of their ability.

-Crissa

[Richard230]

I think the reason that I have never needed any riding aids is because I started riding on a 5 hp scooter, slowly moving upward in power and torque each year or two, riding motorcycles that had poor brakes and worse handling. So I learned to judge the pavement conditions and riding environment over many years and have always been very careful as I ride. Until recently none of my motorcycles would spin their wheels under anything but icy conditions and I have always been careful about braking and keeping my distance from other vehicles. Right now I have two bikes with ABS and one with traction control. My other 4 motorcycles have no riding aids.  Since I switch back and forth between my motorcycles, I fear getting into the habit of expecting these aids to save me in an emergency situation, therefore I ride as if they don't exist.

I might add that I have had two motorcycle accidents during 800K miles of riding. The first one was in 1967 when I was riding up to the Panama Canal locks on my 120cc Suzuki when its front wheel fell into the gap between the train tracks and the pavement. The tracks were parallel with the direction of the roadway. That resulted in a cut forearm. The other time was around a downhill hairpin turn while riding my BMW K100RS at about 10mph and hit a patch of oil on the turn, resulting in both wheels sliding out from under me. The bike fell over on its side and resulted in $4,700 in damage, fortunately mostly paid by insurance. That accident resulted in a cracked collarbone and a trip to the emergency room for a few hours. I was back riding within two weeks. I am now very careful when crossing RR tracks that are not at an angle to the roadway and when going around downhill hairpin turns.

[NEW2elec]

The arguments against TC are very much like the arguments against ABS... that is, bullshit. All riders begin learning somewhere and continue learning throughout their riding careers and there is no reasonable argument to say that it is fine for your first mistake operating a control to make the bike accelerate also be the control that makes it crash without warning the first time you try it. It is backward, outdated thinking. These days engineers understand that we make things safe to use  because they were not safe in the first place. Given that the technology here is - for once - easily implemented at almost no cost (there is already an ABS sensor so no extra hardware is required, only software development), there aren't really any excuses.

Cas

I'm not arguing against TC as a whole I'm stating once again the idea of an electric vehicle being a "death trap" because it has more torque is wrong.  It just takes different riding habits. Like ESokoloff said a gas engine has a delay from throttle to engine spin up to wheel spin up.  Electric doesn't.

I didn't start riding till my late 30s so I should have been sucked into that "death trap" if it were so unavoidably dangerous.  But it's not.
Keep the bike in ECO.  Learn how it feels at slow speeds on empty back roads and a new rider should be fine.

[princec]

All bikes are death traps of course but the Zeros are particularly unfriendly to beginners (and even experienced riders... and it's not about "instant torque" either, it's about torque pulses, or the lack thereof). Because of the unique traction characteristics of electric motors they really need TC to prevent even the most very experienced rider from instantly binning it on just tiny patches of reduced grip.

Cas