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[caza]

There is even less info on the KTM's construction than Zero's, but if those packs are indeed configured like that you might be able to pull a couple packs out and still have a working bike. It depends on how the BMS is configured and integrated with the rest of the bike.

The concern then would be current draw. You'd start pulling almost double the current from your remaining parallel packs, which it likely not what they're rated for. You'd need to have the datasheet for the cells and know what your continuous and peak current draw is on the bike.

[centra12]

The c evo has three 12S modules. I'm not worried about the stability, as BMW has already had experience with the I3, which has the same batteries. According to the workshop, 69AW is charged for battery replacement. The battery change can only be repaired at special service points.

But with Zero's dealer density, it's the same, except that BMW's service centres certainly know their job.

[caza]

Telling me they are 12s modules doesn't tell me what your actual capacity you are getting for the price, this was my question.

Is it 1875€ for a single 12s, 94ah module? Assuming 3.6v nominal cells, with a 4.2v max, that's a 4.7kwh max module. So 398€/KWH. $480 USD

Compare to Zeros 14.4kwh at a supposed $6000 (not confirmed) price, which gets you about $416/kwh.

So the pricing overall isn't much different, but the C-evo having the valuable advantage that you could replace a single module at a time.

I don't know what 69aw is, is that a currency?

[centra12]

Of course the Ah at 4.2 volts refers to what else!!!
At BMW, AW is the term for "work value".
 
12AW are one hour

[caza]

Depending on the cell chemistry used, they could be 3.2v nominal with 3.6v full charged. If that was the case the same module would be 4kwh instead of 4.7kwh. That's a significant difference especially with multiple modules on the bike.

I always find it better to refer to battery modules by their total KWH. If you only give one variable, whether voltage or AH, we don't have the full picture. We need total capacity and clarification on if it's the max capacity that is often advertised or the nominal capacity.

So at 69aw we're talking  just under 6 hours of labor. Makes sense considering how much they have to disassemble to get to the modules:

[centra12]

I have been involved in electric mobility for more than 10 years now and the Ah were always specified at 4.2 volts.
LiFePo4 technology has only just arrived with Tesla.

Why should the battery be opened? It can't run full of water like Zero's because it's sealed?
An ISO error, which is common with Zero, is also unlikely with this system.

 Unfortunately, there is a mistake in the numbers and it should be 96AW. 

[caza]

I’m just not going to assume the chemistry of a battery I’m not familiar with. First you said 94ah with no other info. That didn’t tell me the capacity without also knowing the voltage. Then 12s.  Took 3 comments to get the full picture instead of simply the kwh.

Why should it be opened? Are we not talking about replacing a single module? Would that not require opening up the entire battery casing to get to the individual models?

8hrs yeah that’s a lot of labor.

[Auriga]

Isolation errors don't occur on Zeros due to battery potting or a sealed battery case, it is the electrical connections to the battery and cabling/connectors that are the culprit.

On the newer platforms the earlier bikes had a waterproof connector coating that didn't always work. I've replaced a couple spiderbuses with the new ones and had no more complaints. I hear they're improving that still further with the next model.

[centra12]

I am reassured that BMW did such a good job and protected the battery in the best possible way.

What are 1,000€ in labour and a one battery pack when it runs again? Better than Zero, which has to throw a €15,000 motorbike in the rubbish because of such a fault.

What does a battery pack with tax really cost as a spare part at Zero, and I don't mean speculation.

https://www.leebmann24.de/bmw-ersatzteile/view/btdetail/?series=k17&typ=0c03&og=05&hg=61&bt=61_4281

[Crissa]

Yeah, waterproofing isn't an exact science anyhow.  Condensation, splashing, capillary action, mixed with vibration, motion, and hydrophilic reactions makes it... Not simple.

You hope you did what needed to be done but maybe something gets scraped or twisted a way you didn't predict, or some other panel has water hit it harder than you designed for...

...Which is why most battery units are sealed and/or potted in hydrophobic materials.

-Crissa

[Crissa]

What are 1,000€ in labour and a one battery pack when it runs again?

That really contradicts this:

Better than Zero, which has to throw a €15,000 motorbike in the rubbish because of such a fault.

If the bike is worth 15, 1 is hardly totaling it.

-Crissa

[Auriga]

I am reassured that BMW did such a good job and protected the battery in the best possible way.

What are 1,000€ in labour and a one battery pack when it runs again? Better than Zero, which has to throw a €15,000 motorbike in the rubbish because of such a fault.

What does a battery pack with tax really cost as a spare part at Zero, and I don't mean speculation.

https://www.leebmann24.de/bmw-ersatzteile/view/btdetail/?series=k17&typ=0c03&og=05&hg=61&bt=61_4281

As a dealer, I can tell you that we don't make much profit on batteries. I bet Zero doesn't either, as most of their parts seem to have around a 10-20% markup(you should see the markup on some of the other brands  . Zero only assembles the battery cellboxes, so the price is probably set by farasis.

You're also kinda comparing the worst case Zero to the best case BMW. Let's assume that the BMW gets about as much range and performance as a Zero 7.2 longbrick. Battery dies on both.

Zero 7.2 bike:
1.5h labor(pretty easy to swap} 150USD
7.2kW Battery ~3000USD
3150USD

BMW :
6h labor: 600USD labor
1 Battery Module: 2265USD
2856USD

Difference is only  300USD, and that's assuming they only replace one module. BTW, I'm not at all convinced that they would replace a single module on a BMW with any real mileage because they need to be similar impedance and its almost impossible to match a a new battery to an old one. Zero learned this when people tried to add powertanks to older MY bikes or when replacing one module on an fx.

True, if you compare a single module replacement to a 14.4 battery swap, its a lot bigger. But again, I don't think they do that. At the price per kw of Zero batteries and BMW batteries, Zero is winning, and there is less labor.

[centra12]

This is a good example of how backward Zero is with its battery! The battery is not even actively cooled. We will only replace such a worn battery completely, the CEO must have thought.

Just to remind you, Zero installed the battery cells in the 2012 models without chafing protection and sealing, which then led to fires!

Any normal person with a certain level of expertise would never have implemented such an idiotic design, but Zero would have.
Do you really want to tell me that Zero is the best battery manufacturer in the world overnight and knows everything 

My evo always needs 7-15 minutes (1KW) at 3KW charging power to balance the cells, then it switches off completely.
The BMS from Zero cannot do this because it is old and weak.

[Auriga]

This is a good example of how backward Zero is with its battery! The battery is not even actively cooled. We will only replace such a worn battery completely, the CEO must have thought.

Just to remind you, Zero installed the battery cells in the 2012 models without chafing protection and sealing, which then led to fires!

Any normal person with a certain level of expertise would never have implemented such an idiotic design, but Zero would have.
Do you really want to tell me that Zero is the best battery manufacturer in the world overnight and knows everything 

Hardly. Zero has made plenty of mistakes, some of which I just mentioned. It's FW and App needs more quality control, it's support is dependent on dealers, and its training could use some work.
The 2012 batteries were the last to not be potted, and they used the same cells in the FX line{which were not recalled). 2008-2011 also are not potted. It just isn't as simple as you make it.

You're trying to fault them for not designing battery modules to be replaceable and I've given you several reasons why nobody actually performs cell or module replacements. Not Zero, Energica, Tesla, GM, or probably even BMW.  Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should.
 
FYI, Zero's 14.4 battery is actually two potted battery modules in one case that could probably be swapped in 6 hours. They don't do it because of the reasons I previously mentioned.

[centra12]

The real reason Zero does not repair the batteries is probably because they are not worth it, they are burnt out and the main reason is that the dealer network does not have the level to carry out such a repair. That would always end in disaster.

With the evo and I3, work can be done more safely in many areas because they have modules >60 volts, which of course simplifies the repair.

People have thought things through!