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Author Topic: Battery problem  (Read 2677 times)

Crissa

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2021, 12:37:10 PM »

But a bike without a battery isn't worth anything but a bike with a battery is worth $5400.

EVs can't be priced only on age, they're priced on battery life.  Just like a car with a trashed interior won't get you the full price, or a flawless old car will give you more for it.

Saying it's totalled without a battery is just not thinking clearly.  The battery is what makes it worth anything at all.

-Crissa
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2014 Zero S ZF8.5

centra12

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2021, 01:25:48 PM »

The only reason Zero has potted the battery cells is because they are not capable of designing and manufacturing a sealed battery case.
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caza

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2021, 02:29:54 PM »

The only reason Zero has potted the battery cells is because they are not capable of designing and manufacturing a sealed battery case.

There are several reasons for potting.
The resin helps transfer heat the the outer casing. If they weren't potted they would likely need an active cooling system which is more complex, more costly, and take up more room, resulting in a more expensive, fail-prone battery with less energy density. Potting also gives the pack better shock absorbing abilities which on a motorcycle is pretty necessary.

If zero was working with a huge amount of space, like the skateboard under a tesla, then potting wouldn't be as valuable. and they could approach it in a different way. But potting their pouch cells is a very efficient way to get the energy density Zero needs while still being robust enough for a motorcycle.

For comparison, the 1st gen chevy volt batteries don't use any potting, but they're not even in the same ballpark for energy density as Zeros batteries from the same years. Chevy was using at least 5x the space for the same capacity, and still needed a much more advanced thermal system that took up even more space. The coolant manifold on the volt's 16kwh battery by itself is about 1/3 of Zero's entire 13kwh monolith from the same year.

To say that potting was done for waterproofing alone is just not true, though waterproofing is another good reason.

But a bike without a battery isn't worth anything but a bike with a battery is worth $5400.

EVs can't be priced only on age, they're priced on battery life.  Just like a car with a trashed interior won't get you the full price, or a flawless old car will give you more for it.

Saying it's totalled without a battery is just not thinking clearly.  The battery is what makes it worth anything at all.

-Crissa
That's what I'm saying though. The battery provides almost all of the value of an EV. This is very different than an ICE vehicle which while notably more complex, individual parts are far less likely to be the entire value of the vehicle.

So if the battery goes, it's totaled. Because the battery is where the majority of the value is. You're acting like those are conflicting statements, they're not. This is precisely the thing I'm talking about that makes EV's value and longevity unique compared to ICE vehicles. Ice vehicles do not have the majority of their value in a single part, and their more valuable parts actively degrade or depreciate at the rate batteries do. This makes the act of maintaining the two different vehicle types over multiple decades look very different, as an ICE vehicle is more likely going to have many smaller repairs spread out over time, while the EV is more likely to have one or two huge problems at single points on the timeline. 
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Crissa

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2021, 03:33:37 PM »

But it's not totaled, because you can just pop in another battery and go.

It's not even that complex of a deal.  Takes a little more time than an oil change but as parts go, it's mostly heavy and needs to talk to a computer to finish syncing with the bike.  Definitely not so much work comparatively since it's supposed to then last for another 150k miles.

-Crissa
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centra12

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2021, 05:01:59 PM »

That's bullshit.

All major BEV manufacturers have sealed battery cases, but Zero does not.
More and more customers know this and are increasingly deciding against this inadequate technology.
At the Zero dealer in our area who also sells Energica, the sales figures for Zero-Energica are 1-5.
Not without reason the annual production of Energica sold out and of Zero?
With the 3 generation and the same outdated technology Zero has dug his grave.
I hope Zero just not the Energica no 15k motorcycle with a 14kw battery on the market brings. That would be their immediate death sentence in Europe   :o
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Crissa

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2021, 05:46:42 PM »

Sealed battery cases have to have expansion space.

And Tesla's cells are potted, too, it's just a foamy stuff instead of a sticky stuff.  Their structural battery will be in a rigid matrix.  No cell replacement there, either.

I don't even know what people think they're arguing now.

-Crissa
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2014 Zero S ZF8.5

centra12

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2021, 06:49:17 PM »

Just because Tesla does it this way doesn't mean it's the best.

Tesla has also like Zero never really earned money.
In addition, Elon was at VW, apparently he is aware that the lead is dwindling ;D
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Richard230

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2021, 08:26:06 PM »

My son-in-law has a 1985 Kawasaki GPz550 sitting in his driveway with a cover over it. The bike hasn't run in many years and is now being used as a home for mice, spiders and various pieces of rotting rubber and plastic. So there is a use for old ICE motorcycles after the give up running.   ::)
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Fran K

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2021, 09:02:10 PM »

My son-in-law has a 1985 Kawasaki GPz550 sitting in his driveway with a cover over it. The bike hasn't run in many years and is now being used as a home for mice, spiders and various pieces of rotting rubber and plastic. So there is a use for old ICE motorcycles after the give up running.   ::)
That is a topic for another day, especially if your daughter feeds the birds.  The gasoline tank might have some value though.
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caza

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2021, 10:41:07 PM »

But it's not totaled, because you can just pop in another battery and go.

It's not even that complex of a deal.  Takes a little more time than an oil change but as parts go, it's mostly heavy and needs to talk to a computer to finish syncing with the bike.  Definitely not so much work comparatively since it's supposed to then last for another 150k miles.

-Crissa

A totaled vehicle is one where the cost of the repair exceeds the value of the vehicle. How easy or complex the repair is, is only relevant in terms of labor cost, but a totaled vehicle is an economic function. So even if the bike is in otherwise pristine, perfect condition, and the labor is 1hr of easy work, if the cost of the battery is more than the value of the bike, it is totaled.
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Crissa

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2021, 11:50:42 PM »

A new electric bike without a battery is just as similarly worthless because the battery essential to the bike.

This 'this pile of parts has to be more valuable without any one part' thing literally does not make sense here.

-Crissa
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2014 Zero S ZF8.5

centra12

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2021, 12:00:41 AM »

If Zero sold the single battery pack like BMW (1875€ with tax for 94AH) the above mentioned Zero could easily be repaired for 2000-2500€.

The battery can be removed in 30 minutes and the leaking sheet metal covers can also be dismantled in 15 minutes.
But as it is, the bike is just a piece of hazardous waste!
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Crissa

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2021, 12:15:52 AM »

The evolution c has half the range os a Zero S,

-Crissa
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2014 Zero S ZF8.5

caza

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2021, 12:19:54 AM »

A new electric bike without a battery is just as similarly worthless because the battery essential to the bike.

This 'this pile of parts has to be more valuable without any one part' thing literally does not make sense here.

-Crissa
A new bike is guaranteed to have a battery, and a warranty to protect the function and value of that battery, what are you even talking about?

There is a practical reality that batteries are going to fail and it will be prohibitively expensive to replace them for the majority of EV owners.

Nothing "has to be" anything, that's just the reality of EV costs. The battery is expensive, it can and will fail (sometimes because of a single cell!), and that totals the vehicle. This is a very different financial reality than ICE vehicles. That is all.

If Zero sold the single battery pack like BMW (1875€ with tax for 94AH) the above mentioned Zero could easily be repaired for 2000-2500€.

The battery can be removed in 30 minutes and the leaking sheet metal covers can also be dismantled in 15 minutes.
But as it is, the bike is just a piece of hazardous waste!
This is one of the nice things about the modular FXS, as those 3.6kwh batteries are about 3K USD, which is far easier to justify compared the value of the bike. Someone with a 7.2 modular could easily replace a single module. I do agree that multiple modules is a good way to go to make the bike more serviceable. It would be wise for Zero to at least have an optional version of that modularity for their bigger bikes.

What is the actual KWH, not just AH, of that BMW battery at that price? Which vehicle are you talking about? The BMW C-Evolution (only electric BMW bike I'm aware of) has the entire battery pack as a structural member of the scooter and is presumably far more labor to remove and replace than the zero's relatively simple bolt-in monolith.
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Fran K

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Re: Battery problem
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2021, 12:31:32 AM »

A new electric bike without a battery is just as similarly worthless because the battery essential to the bike.

This 'this pile of parts has to be more valuable without any one part' thing literally does not make sense here.

-Crissa

I would not say it is worthless since bikes tip over and crash, hit objects hard enough to damage rims, etc. so it has some value.
From the aspect of the definiton of totaled as crash insurance adjuster  why argue?  After the vehicle is totaled in a crash some folks talk of buying it off the insurance company.  So totaled can have value. 

I have wondered about getting a lighter battery for my KTM.  It has 5 parallel sets of 72 cells in series.  For my purposes 3 sets would make it lighter and since I really only ride it on 100 acre places range isn't an issue, would be much easier to get out from under when I tip over.  Too bad the discussion did not go down that track.
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