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[Richard230]

I hope you and Crissa will accept ...

I just pointed out that the car is a real car with a real factory.  Yes, it's less 'real' than something rolling off the factory floor, but there were literally 40 of them a year ago, and they're making more now.  It's as real as the Tucker was.

Now, you can say the Lordstown truck is 'just a prototype' because there is only one and it's not production intent.  But there are dozens of examples of the Lucid Air now, and they just built their factory from the ground up, not just slapping their name on an existing building.

So saying it's not real is... genuinely unhinged.

-Crissa

I heard today on the CBS radio news that an EV company that was going to build trucks, I think it was Lucid (it was the one that GM was going to invest in and then dropped out of the deal), is being investigated by the SEC for fraud, their CEO has bailed out and might be headed for jail some day. The company was apparently following in the footsteps of several other high-profile startup companies with big claims and no product who were trolling for investors and got caught lying about their product and their business model. 

[princec]

You're thinking of Nikola.

Cas

[NEW2elec]

Ok MVetter, I'll return the favor and cherry pick what I want from your post.
Quote from MVetter:

"All I can do is speculate"

That's right, so don't, just wait and see what the finished bike is like.

Also quoted from MVetter while addressing me:

"your honor"

Now that's more like it.   

[MVetter]

Cherry pick? What parts of your post do you feel I didn't address fairly?

[NEW2elec]

What part of this concept isn't fair?

"All I can do is speculate"

That's right, so don't, just wait and see what the finished bike is like.

[MVetter]

I'm not entirely sure that taking half a quote out of context and repeatedly waving it at me is going to have the desired effect.

[NEW2elec]

My last post for the night.

When you typed "All I can do is speculate" that is where you should have stopped typing because that is heart of the matter.  It's what I have told you you were doing on more than one occasion. 

I encouraged you and anyone else interested to sign up for a test ride.  To hold judgement until you had a chance to at least get a taste of what the bike could do and how it felt.

This is universally excepted as the way to "try before you buy" so to speak.  It isn't too much to ask to wait for that opportunity.

You've gone way past cautious skepticism to the point where you seem to desperately not want this company to succeed.   

[MVetter]

You've gone way past cautious skepticism to the point where you seem to desperately not want this company to succeed.

If I didn't have a good grasp of the technology you would have a point. I look at the amazing accomplishments of the other manufacturers in this sector. Zero. Energica. Harley-Davidson. They're all making really cool things resulting in bikes that make sense when you break down their components and look at them. Stay with me on this. Along comes another company that says, using more or less the same technology, their next-gen bike will deliver 150% more on basically every stat.

"Huh" I say to myself, "I wonder how they plan to accomplish that. Will they have a higher density battery?"

No. In fact they're using lower-density 21700 cells that weigh more and don't stack nearly as efficiently as pouches. So the battery may actually be taking a step backwards in relation to the competition.

"Hmm. Motor?"

Appears to be based on the one Mission designed for H-D. Works well but nothing revolutionary.

"Controller?"

Appears to be Mission's controller from 8 years ago. It's good but nothing revolutionary.

"Well then the answer must be aerodynamics. Thankfully I know a fair bit about aerodynamic shapes and what it takes to cut through the wind at high speeds with little resistance. The SR/S is taking great steps in this direction but even it can't do under 100 Wh/mi at freeway speeds which is what you would need to accomplish 200 miles."

No it's an FIM style fairing. Looks to be slightly less aerodynamic than the SR/S.

"Ok well then pardon my French but what the ****?"

[Crissa]

Vetter, you have a great grasp of technology.

But you're taking the engineer's mistake.  That nothing beyond your personal past capability is possible.

-Crissa

[NEW2elec]

Yes Crissa, that statement pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say.

MVetter: "their next-gen bike will deliver 150% more on basically every stat."

Umm your math is still off there.
The Ego+ claims 150hp (edit 145hp).  The Hypersport claims 200hp, that's about a 33.5% (edit 38%) increase.
The Ego+ claims 150mph.  The Hypersport claims 200mph once again 33.5% increase.
The Ego+ claims 250 miles city range.  Damon claimed 300 miles city range for a 20% increase.

How MIGHT they achieve this?
Lets start with the basics.
Higher Voltage=Lower Amps=Less Heat=Lower Internal Cell Resistance=Less need for liquid cooling=Lower volume of liquid needed to circulate through the system to achieve a desired temperature=Less weight.
This also applies to the motor with the same effect and outcome.
By the way this is what Lucid credited with some of it's improved efficiency, if you had bothered to watch and acknowledge that instead of coming up with a wild theory that they added batteries to the media car. 

The Hyperdrive unit does away with a standard frame, serving two purposes for the same weight.
To further speculate, by using cylindrical cells which are more durable and puncture resistant than pouch cells they don't need to house their cells in a heavy bank safe style battery case like Energica.
While we're here that new Energica battery case that removed the air flow channel seems to be less able to bleed off heat causing CCS charging to ramp down at as low as 40% SOC according to some Forum members. 
Discussed here https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10494.0 Maybe they can get that fixed, we'll see.

As for aerodynamics, hard to tell, but if the bike is configured in such a way as to allow the rider to better tuck in out of the wind that makes the true measure (bike+rider) better over all.

[princec]

Aerodynamics for motorcycles is ... bullshit. Forget about that argument. The fairing won't make more than 10% difference to the range, and even that's highly unlikely as it looks to be designed for style, not function.

Cas

[MVetter]

Umm your math is still off there.
The Ego+ claims 150hp (edit 145hp).  The Hypersport claims 200hp, that's about a 33.5% (edit 38%) increase.
The Ego+ claims 150mph.  The Hypersport claims 200mph once again 33.5% increase.
The Ego+ claims 250 miles city range.  Damon claimed 300 miles city range for a 20% increase.

And the Zero bikes and LiveWire have stats further away from that so I kinda split the difference mentally because I was including them.

How MIGHT they achieve this?
Lets start with the basics.
Higher Voltage=Lower Amps=Less Heat=Lower Internal Cell Resistance=Less need for liquid cooling=Lower volume of liquid needed to circulate through the system to achieve a desired temperature=Less weight.
This also applies to the motor with the same effect and outcome.
By the way this is what Lucid credited with some of it's improved efficiency, if you had bothered to watch and acknowledge that instead of coming up with a wild theory that they added batteries to the media car. 

What are your thoughts on why the SR/F, with its smaller battery and literally half the voltage, got very similar range numbers to the LiveWire in Cycle World's review, then? https://www.cycleworld.com/story/motorcycle-reviews/2020-harley-davidson-livewire-vs-zero-motorcycles-srf-premium/

Also you assert that this platform would have less need for liquid cooling, yet they're actively pursuing adding it. No one else has liquid cooling on the batteries besides other concept bikes like Evoke's 6061 cruiser which, incidentally also is trying to use cylinders and is freaking massive as a result. Behemoth on wheels. But hey that's what you get with cylindrical cells.

Aerodynamics for motorcycles is ... bullshit. Forget about that argument. The fairing won't make more than 10% difference to the range, and even that's highly unlikely as it looks to be designed for style, not function.

This application of aero is definitely questionable. But aero for motorcycles, when done right, can and will halve the drag and thereby double the range.

[NEW2elec]

1. I wasn't they don't come close to a 19-21kWh pack.  The Damon SX and SE models cover those.

2. The LW uses that reduction gear (and shorter gearing over all) which lets it pull real hard off the line but at the cost of top speed and efficiency.  I posted months ago for you two to do a equal range run and show which bikes died first because I knew that would happen.

3 Cooling for the Hyperdrive is all part of one package so all gets cooled.  The Alta used cylinder cells and was incredibly robust and on the rare occasion they come up for sale on Cycle Trader they are gone in a week.

Based on Gen 2 Zeros using Diginow's  9.9 kw of charging overheating on long tour trips and also the a fore mentioned but ignored by you new Energica+ bikes ramping down charging speeds because of overheating they NEED cooling.

[MVetter]

The inverter, motor, and batteries all run at wildly different temperatures. Energicas motors are in an oil bath and the inverter has a separate water pump and its own radiator. Do you suspect Damon is going to try and link the cooling system of the motor, which can run in excess of 200 F, with the batteries that generally need to stay under 100 F?

[NEW2elec]

There are two radiators if you look.  One on each side.

Are we done playing the guessing game yet?