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[MVetter]

It is a somewhat loose term, but I think it's fair to use the FIM's definition which means 125 units made on the initial visit with another 125 made within a year. https://www.fim-moto.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/2023/2023_FIM_Homologation_Regulations_For_Motorcycles_v1_27.01.2023_final.pdf?t=1680585786

If you look at the publicly posted financial statements from Lightning's investor page, it indicates they're selling between 4-8 bikes per year. https://netcapital.com/files/15128c6e-6501-4316-9a9e-3b5626a2b1dd/lightningmotorcycle_audit-report.pdf

And no two are identical.

[wavelet]

  According to Google and chatgpt, the term "production vehicle" is pretty well spelled out and I think Lightning meets the criteria of possibly "limited production".

It does not meet the definition of 'Production'.

    Where are you getting the definition of 'Production', and in what way does Lightning not meet this definition?
  Would you consider Koenigsegg vehicles to be non-production?
  As I watched them work, they appeared to be putting out bikes about once every two weeks. (My guess).
  Is there a number you are looking for, or something else?

This isn't rocket science.
I don't really care about FIM's, or the Guiness Book of World Records, or other re-definitions of the term.
The commonsense, man-in-the-street definition and usage are simple: A production car is one anyone with enough money can go and buy through normal sales channels, if they have the money and it hasn't sold out. The number produced has nothing to do with it: Very limited-production cars like the Rimacs are still production cars: There are known, detailed,  specs whichc identical for all exemplars of a model.

The recordbreaker LS-218 was not a production bike because it was a one-off vehicle with customized parts (which Lightning never disclosed publicly): Custom bodywork, custom gearing (maybe that is available off-the-shelf, no idea -- but the bodywork certainly isn't) plus several other modifications.
In most countries you couldn't homologate that particular  LS-218, because you'd need to submit several additional identical examples for safety & equipment testing etc.

[MVetter]

Should the term Production also indicate to you, the user, that if you were to pull any two of the same model off the line and inspect them they should be more or less identical? Because every bike I've looked at up close is quite different from each other despite being the same model.

Having said that I am confident I could pull up two S2 Del Mars, Zero SR/S, or Energica EVA Ribelles and go "yeah these are the same thing".

[Apollo]

Should the term Production also indicate to you, the user, that if you were to pull any two of the same model off the line and inspect them they should be more or less identical? Because every bike I've looked at up close is quite different from each other despite being the same model.

Having said that I am confident I could pull up two S2 Del Mars, Zero SR/S, or Energica EVA Ribelles and go "yeah these are the same thing".

   It would seem by your definition my Tesla Model 3 is not a production vehicle.  Tesla continuously updates the hardware of its cars rather than waiting for a new model year. If you look up close you will find many updated parts in an effort to make a better product.
Maybe we should have a discussion about what it means to have a product in "Production".

  Please review the links for known facts about Tesla's "Non-Production" vehicles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.
https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-s

 

[Richard230]

It is a somewhat loose term, but I think it's fair to use the FIM's definition which means 125 units made on the initial visit with another 125 made within a year. https://www.fim-moto.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/2023/2023_FIM_Homologation_Regulations_For_Motorcycles_v1_27.01.2023_final.pdf?t=1680585786

If you look at the publicly posted financial statements from Lightning's investor page, it indicates they're selling between 4-8 bikes per year. https://netcapital.com/files/15128c6e-6501-4316-9a9e-3b5626a2b1dd/lightningmotorcycle_audit-report.pdf

And no two are identical.

How do you keep a manufacturing company operating selling only 4 to 8 bikes a year? I would think it would hardly keep a company with even a few employees financially functioning for even a month.

[MVetter]

Please review the links for known facts about Tesla's "Non-Production" vehicles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.
https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-s

I would not presume to impart the FIM's regulations on a car.

edit- out of curiosity, how would YOU define production? Does it simply mean "something is being made?" or is there more to it?

How do you keep a manufacturing company operating selling only 4 to 8 bikes a year? I would think it would hardly keep a company with even a few employees financially functioning for even a month.

I don't know. These financials are provided by Lightning publicly.

[HoodRichOG]

Richard Hatfield live q&a over zoom tomorrow:

http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/1380169/70d5104e98/543998511/a93bd29d54/

[MVetter]

It was interesting looking at the rendering of their Dual Sport concept and seeing the bags from the Energica Experia on it with the names scrubbed off. Like, not a similar bag from Givi, literally pixel for pixel the exact bags used in Energica's photoshoot.

edit- that was from the Investor Q&A Zoom yesterday.

[Apollo]

edit- out of curiosity, how would YOU define production? Does it simply mean "something is being made?" or is there more to it?

  I personally would probably follow along with Wikipedia on this one as it's generally accepted by the masses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_vehicle#:~:text=Production%20vehicles%20or%20production%20cars,within%20particular%20countries%20or%20uses.

   "Production vehicle"
       -  There is no single fixed global definition of the term.
       -  There is no fixed definition of the number of vehicles or the amount of modification allowed outside of motorsports or national regulations or laws that determine what is or is not a production vehicle.

   Rather than quote or harp on a term that has no global definition, it seems time would be better spent focusing on something more productive.

[wavelet]

In nearly every industry I'm familiar with (the only exception is large scale one-off software deployment), "production" is just short for "series production". That most certainly implies serial manufacturing of identical vehicles.

[Specter]

Nobody likes our muscle bikes because they are just too powerful.
umm ok, whatever dude.

and the porn star is crying that his dick is too long too, nobody wants to see that right?
pretty much every hard core racer I have seen wants more power, not less.
Oh that Ducati is just TOO powerful, can you tone it down a bit?  No I DON'T want a wrascal roustabout !

Well, at least Lightning supports charity,  the whores for virginity foundation.

If they are copying pixel for pixel someone elses products to slap onto theirs, isn't that some kind of copyright violation or something?  I mean I get it, it's the internet, and there's not much originality on that side of the planet and  everyone steals everyone elses work but geez, at least doctor it up a bit and not just scribble the other guys name off it, or at least give credit to the origin of the work.  I wonder what else they stole from Energica? 

In production, well, there are several definitions depending on who's DICKtionary you want to use, and of course those def's will be twisted to align with the sayers goals  etc etc. but my take, can I go in NOW and say I want one and it can be built, or is in stock,  or being built if it's sold out etc etc.  If it's something that someone wants to brag is 'custom' ok, can I still go in and order it and you can and WILL begin work on it now.  Like my racing suit, .. each one is different, each one is unique, BUT each one is available as soon as you order it, the 'process' starts.  You can look at a row of them and each is different, but you can see clearly, yes it's the Dainese leathers, type thing.  That, is in production.  Currently active being made, and for sale.

Production - It's not waiting for seed money, grift money, or competent help to make it happen.  Selling 2 or 3 a year is NOT in production.  Not advertising or not open for business is NOT in production.

Ok, so we just seen that some money was put down for one of these bikes.

WHEN will they start building it?
WHEN will that person reasonably expect they can see their bike?

PRE order is not
PRO duction

If it does ever make the market, I wonder if they will go the way of Aprilla?   Throw some of them out there and then you can't get any parts or service for them.  If they don't have the parts to make new ones, they sure as hell are not going to have them to fix old ones!  THAT is something one needs to take into consideration as well when getting something, just because they claim it's 'in production'.   Oh I don't mind waiting 8 months to get a new set of brake pads !! I want  4 of those bikes !!

Aaron

[Motoproponent]

Y'know there is a lot of Lightning hate in on the internet in general. I want them to be successful. I remember when I heard about the $16,000 game changer that would soon be on the market. I was so stoked.

But when legitimate questions were answered with obvious lies, especially about production, I soured on the brand. Like many.

When questions like; "where are all the Lightnings?" "How come there aren't any owners posting videos and pics on social media?" "Where are the plugshare check ins?" the answer was there's a ton of owners but they only post on Lightning Specific media outlets that only owners, real owners, have access to. Mr. Hatfield insists, in an infamous expletive laden video and on other social media, that they've been producing and selling street legal bikes since 2016. I've only ever seen the footprint of the same 4 or 5 lightnings.

Answering the one question... How many lightnings have been sold to customers. (not employees or investors).

How many?

Like not even an exact number, give me the biggest "more than" number. More than 10? More than 50? More than 100?

Take a page from Trevor Milton. He admitted the "Test Mule" that appears in the promotional videos for his electric truck was either ICE Powered or rolling down a hill. He admitted his static displays at shows were plugged in and not functional. Now I have see a Hydrogen Nikola on the road. I personally know someone that ordered 50 Hydrogen Nikola Class 8 trucks. The truth recovered his company.

The source of all the distrust with Lightning is the one piece of information that all the lies and misdirection are surrounding.

How many Lightnings are out there?

Harley/Livewire published how many. We know about how many Experias there are because owners report their VIN numbers when asked. There is no question Zeros are the most common, at least here in the US. So far, all I ever see are #lightningstrikenumberone and his three buddies out and about.

[Apollo]

That, is in production.  Currently active being made, and for sale.
Production - It's not waiting for seed money, grift money, or competent help to make it happen.  Selling 2 or 3 a year is NOT in production.  Not advertising or not open for business is NOT in production.
Ok, so we just seen that some money was put down for one of these bikes.
WHEN will they start building it?
WHEN will that person reasonably expect they can see their bike?
Aaron

   Whew! I swung by Lightning today to see how my bike is doing.
..."Selling 2 or 3 a year"...  I am not sure where this number comes from.

Walking into the shop today, I see 3 new bikes ready or almost ready to go out the door.  I am not sure where they are all going, but they are craking them out!

I asked Richard about non-waterproof bikes and he commented that the LS-218's are not waterproof.  They are sold as track bikes that "can" be ridden on the street.  He said he was not sure he could recommend it as they have so much power.  In building the 218's, Lightning has some options for gearing, extended swingarms, and 800volt options.  They make so much heat dumping massive amps to the motors, that Lightning has to leave an opening in the front for airflow for the batteries. This is spelled out to all potential customers and not hidden.  Lightning recommends the Strike R/C for the street and 218's for the track only.

"WHEN will they start building it?"  Mine started about a month ago, as they quoted me upon deposit.
"WHEN will that person reasonably expect they can see their bike?" Mine is almost ready for pickup. Yea!
 
   My bike is almost completely built and exactly in the time frame they quoted. They are finishing up the cruise control buttons on the handlebar. Then they will be out doing drive tests, charge tests, etc.  Ready for me Very Soon.  (Next Week) Then it's up to me to schedule time for pickup, get insurance, and stop by the DMV. Oh, and bring some money.

I will post some pictures, but I can only attach one picture per post. So there will be a couple of posts after this.

[Apollo]

I will post some pictures, but I can only attach one picture per post. So there will be a couple of posts after this.

  Stopping by to check on my new bike.
Here I found three new bikes getting ready to go.
First is the Blue Strike C, all finished waiting for customer pickup.

[Apollo]

Second up is a White Strike C, all finished. It needs a road test and charging tests. The customer has been notified to schedule pickup.
Lightning rides the bikes to ensure batteries provide power properly until properly depleted, then check the charging with CCS1-AC charging, then again with CCS-FC (DC Charging). 
They also test the bikes with the major charging vendors to ensure compatibility.