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[caza]

So after listing it for sale I ended up deciding to keep my bike. It's a 2015 SR.

The battery is still in great condition, but I'm starting to wonder what my options are going to be when it does end up degrading past its usefulness.

Has anyone replaced their monolith? Do we have any idea what a monolith + labor would cost, and if it's possible to buy the part and do the labor yourself?

And finally, my biggest question is about building my own pack, and more specifically how integrated it would have to be to the stock system. If I build a pack with its own BMS that safely matches the peak amps and voltage of the stock pack, could I just drop it in and it work?

Are there safeguards in the Zero MBB that would stop the bike from working if it isn't talking to the stock BMS? If it would just give me an error and let me ride that would be good enough for me, but my concern is that the bike won't move if it isn't talking to the BMS.

Any and all insight would be appreciated.

[DonTom]

Any and all insight would be appreciated.

The battery is the most expensive item in your bike. It would cost a lot more to replace than the bike is worth.

Don't pour good money into a very bad investment. I have make that mistake enough times in my life to learn my lesson.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[dvdt]

If you are still within the battery warranty period (perhaps given it is a 2015) it may be worth paying for a service visit to assess the battery condition prior to expiration of the warranty, particularly if you have any reasons to suspect it has been degrading.

[TheRan]

Any and all insight would be appreciated.

The battery is the most expensive item in your bike. It would cost a lot more to replace than the bike is worth.

Don't pour good money into a very bad investment. I have make that mistake enough times in my life to learn my lesson.

-Don-  Reno, NV

I don't understand this reasoning, a replacement battery is always going to be cheaper than buying a whole new bike with the same battery.


I know there are people out there and even on here who have replaced their battery but they never seem to mention the cost, and they're also one of the few things that AF1 don't sell (or atleast they don't list it on their site, perhaps they could order one in if requested). They do however have the 3.6 packs for the FX/S and 3.6 power thank and those are $3k, so a 7.2 is likely to be around $6k and a 14.4 should be less than $12k.

[Richard230]

If you are not having a problem with your battery right now, I wouldn't worry about it. It is quite possible that your battery could last for many more years as long as you properly charge the battery. However, what might fail is the on-board charger. But that is easy to replace with the latest version at a price of $800. 

I might add that the 2017 Zero brochure claimed a life of over 300,000 miles for the life of their battery pack.   

[NoMoreIdeas]

This is the only place I could quickly find a new pack, but it will give you an idea of cost. https://www.nyaparts.co.uk/shop/electric-bike/battery-chargers-and-electrical/battery-assembly-monolith-14-4kwh-zero-s-sr-ds-dsr/

[DonTom]

I don't understand this reasoning, a replacement battery is always going to be cheaper than buying a whole new bike with the same battery.

Yes, repairs are almost always cheaper. Does that mean we never should get anything better?

An EV battery is a major expense. IMO, that is the time to upgrade for a better bike. Lots of improvements in the last five years.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

I might add that the 2017 Zero brochure claimed a life of over 300,000 miles for the life of their battery pack.

That's if you do nothing but city riding.
 
The larger load on an EV battery (such as higher speeds), the shorter it will last. But even 150,000 miles isn't bad.

If you want your battery to last way past the warranty period, always go for the largest capacity battery available and ride kinda like I do (on the slow side).

-Don- Reno, NV

[TheRan]

This is the only place I could quickly find a new pack, but it will give you an idea of cost. https://www.nyaparts.co.uk/shop/electric-bike/battery-chargers-and-electrical/battery-assembly-monolith-14-4kwh-zero-s-sr-ds-dsr/

Damn, that's a lot cheaper than I was expecting ($12k comes out to around £9k and shit's always more expensive over here).

I don't understand this reasoning, a replacement battery is always going to be cheaper than buying a whole new bike with the same battery.

Yes, repairs are almost always cheaper. Does that mean we never should get anything better?

An EV battery is a major expense. IMO, that is the time to upgrade for a better bike. Lots of improvements in the last five years.

-Don-  Reno, NV

I still don't understand you. The guy's talking about eventually repairing the bike instead of just dumping it. They really haven't changed all that much. For under £7k he could have a 2015 14.4 SR versus paying £15.5k for a 2021 model, that's a significant saving.

[DonTom]

I still don't understand you. The guy's talking about eventually repairing the bike instead of just dumping it. They really haven't changed all that much. For under £7k he could have a 2015 14.4 SR versus paying £15.5k for a 2021 model, that's a significant saving.

Perhaps the best  time to make such a decision will be when the battery finally craps out and then compare to what is available.

I think you're right, other than the battery (which will be replaced anyway) and the smaller belt in the 2015 (which can be upgraded, IIRC) there probably isn't much difference between the 2015 SR and the latest SR. But if you wanna upgrade to something like an SR/S, I wouldn't  want to pour any money into an old SR.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[caza]

Thanks for all the replies.

I really don't need help making the decision between eventually upgrading the battery or getting a new bike, I just want a clearer view of my options.

DonTom, I get what you're saying but it's also not even comparable and entirely dependent on how much money you have to blow. The 21 SR is basically identical to my 15 in my eyes. There's no reason to blow 15k on that bike compared to, let's say a 5-6k battery. That's the definition of a bad investment in my eyes.

Likewise, while maybe I'll want to upgrade to an SRS, an EGO, whatever else is out by that time, it's a pointless comparison because we are still talking about a difference of investing under 7k in a new battery or 25k+ on one of those newer bikes. Is upgrading to an SRS better? Sure. But we're comparing a big loan on a brand new bike to a few grand out of checking for a new battery. My water pump needed to be replaced on my Volt, I replaced it, never in my mind was I thinking "Well maybe I should spend 44k on a new Volt!"

Shopping for a new vehicle and looking at repair options for a current vehicle are entirely different conversations and thought processes that only sometimes overlap.

Thanks NoMoreIdeas for the link. I would assume the part would be slightly cheaper in CA but not hugely cheaper, so that gives me a good idea of what Zero is charging at the moment.

The DIY replacement pack idea and its feasibility is really what I'm after here. I can get model 3 cells for $1600 for an entire 12kwh nominal pack. There are obviously more costs involved and the labor of building the pack, but this to me is going to be the most affordable way to prolong the life of my bike. So really my #1 question is just research for that potential battery build: Does the bike need to talk to the BMS in order to function?

And yeah, Zero says 300,000 miles, but they're zero. Until we see bikes with that kind of mileage we won't know. We have seen bikes degrade quicker than that, and depending on how my commute changes or doesn't, even if my pack has 80% capacity it might not be enough for me anymore even if it's functioning perfectly fine. I expect this to be the reality much faster than the potential end of life degradation of the battery.

[NEW2elec]

Caza, changing your water pump is about like changing your DC-DC convertor just unhook and hook back up and go.
 Building your own battery pack is like rebuilding your engine and transmission.
I would doubt you could fit Tesla 2170 cells in a 12kWh arrangement that would:
A. Fit in the Zero Battery box space.
B. Be able to handle the lack of heating and cooling that Tesla's provide.
C. Be able to seal the box up to keep water out.
You'd also need to:
D. Wire and program your own BMS.
E.  Program the controller for the new cell type.

Now could some Electrical Engineers set it up for this?  Maybe to probably but if that's not you (I know it's not me) you'll have to go with a Zero battery and I strongly doubt they will send one to your house for the liability of people getting hurt dealing with electrical components they don't know enough about.  The Zero dealers want to make money too.

Call up your dealer and get a quote for a battery replacement.  I'm guessing over $8k US to get it done.
Being a 2015 you also don't have the IPM motor so hard riding will over heat your motor.

[caza]

Definitely understood. The water pump analogy was definitely not perfect, just my most recent experience. I do realize that building a huge battery like this is a project, but it's also not rocket science.

You bring up some good points about the challenges of building the pack and they certainly are challenges.

A. Fit: Pouch cells are are certainly energy dense so fitment is more of a challenge with cyllindrical cells. But we've also come a long way since Zero announced they had the densest cells in the market. To match voltage we'd need 28S, to match capacity we'd need 30P. That's 840 cells.

Zero battery box is about 10" wide. You can fit 3 cells side by side and still have 1.5" extra for wires, tape, foam, etc. Tight but doable. So basically you're looking at 3 side by side packs of batteries.

The pack is about 16" long. If we use 17 cells in this direction We would still have 2" for other materials.

It's also 16" high. So let's say we have 2 of the 3 packs at 15 cells high, with the 3rd one containing the remaining cells with the last, impartial row at 13 cells high. This leaves about 3.5" above the pack, in the enclose for the BMS.

This is not to say this is the most optimal way to fit the batteries, I haven't even accounted for staggering them, but they definitely fit. If I play around with more configurations I could potentially fit a lot more cells, and if necessary I could always extend out into the area where the storage/powertank/chargetank sits.

B. This is a legitimate issue that I definitely need to do more research on. It's clear that batteries are best with temp management. But Zero basically doesn't do temp management. We've seen their cells overheat from charging and especially from long freeway rides and extended trips from people who charge and ride back to back multiple times a day.

The question is really how much are the tesla cells going to heat up under my personal normal use vs the farasis cells, how much loads effect the heat etc. The tesla cells are rated to reach up to 70c under load, while the farasis are rated to 55c. Farasis rated for continuous discharge of 87A, and the tesla cells are rated for only 15A continuous. But when you consider we're talking 8 tesla cells per 1 farasis cell, an 87A load would only be 11A~ per tesla cell. So the bike would be working with a significantly bigger margin.

I really don't know the answer to this question and more research is warranted. Perhaps I would need to do something similar to what Alta did for their cylindrical cells.

C. This is honestly trivial compared to the rest of the build, and even in the worst case scenario it's a non-issue to me since I do not ride in the rain.

D. BMS's aren't black magic. There are a huge number of them available and programming them isn't complex. I'm not concerned about this part of the process at all.

E. This is really the main thing I've been trying to ask about, which is how much of the bike is integrated with the battery. There are a ton or resources for building batteries, but there isn't a lot of info on how the zero controller and mobo integrate with the BMS. I've heard people on this forum do some programming changes themselves on the controller but I'm unclear on the line between what is user programmable and what requires dealer tools.

[Auriga]

Definitely understood. The water pump analogy was definitely not perfect, just my most recent experience. I do realize that building a huge battery like this is a project, but it's also not rocket science.

You bring up some good points about the challenges of building the pack and they certainly are challenges.

A. Fit: Pouch cells are are certainly energy dense so fitment is more of a challenge with cyllindrical cells. But we've also come a long way since Zero announced they had the densest cells in the market. To match voltage we'd need 28S, to match capacity we'd need 30P. That's 840 cells.

Zero battery box is about 10" wide. You can fit 3 cells side by side and still have 1.5" extra for wires, tape, foam, etc. Tight but doable. So basically you're looking at 3 side by side packs of batteries.

The pack is about 16" long. If we use 17 cells in this direction We would still have 2" for other materials.

It's also 16" high. So let's say we have 2 of the 3 packs at 15 cells high, with the 3rd one containing the remaining cells with the last, impartial row at 13 cells high. This leaves about 3.5" above the pack, in the enclose for the BMS.

This is not to say this is the most optimal way to fit the batteries, I haven't even accounted for staggering them, but they definitely fit. If I play around with more configurations I could potentially fit a lot more cells, and if necessary I could always extend out into the area where the storage/powertank/chargetank sits.

B. This is a legitimate issue that I definitely need to do more research on. It's clear that batteries are best with temp management. But Zero basically doesn't do temp management. We've seen their cells overheat from charging and especially from long freeway rides and extended trips from people who charge and ride back to back multiple times a day.

The question is really how much are the tesla cells going to heat up under my personal normal use vs the farasis cells, how much loads effect the heat etc. The tesla cells are rated to reach up to 70c under load, while the farasis are rated to 55c. Farasis rated for continuous discharge of 87A, and the tesla cells are rated for only 15A continuous. But when you consider we're talking 8 tesla cells per 1 farasis cell, an 87A load would only be 11A~ per tesla cell. So the bike would be working with a significantly bigger margin.

I really don't know the answer to this question and more research is warranted. Perhaps I would need to do something similar to what Alta did for their cylindrical cells.

C. This is honestly trivial compared to the rest of the build, and even in the worst case scenario it's a non-issue to me since I do not ride in the rain.

D. BMS's aren't black magic. There are a huge number of them available and programming them isn't complex. I'm not concerned about this part of the process at all.

E. This is really the main thing I've been trying to ask about, which is how much of the bike is integrated with the battery. There are a ton or resources for building batteries, but there isn't a lot of info on how the zero controller and mobo integrate with the BMS. I've heard people on this forum do some programming changes themselves on the controller but I'm unclear on the line between what is user programmable and what requires dealer tools.

I'd say the bike is extremely integrated with the battery. The BMS talks directly to the MBB, constantly providing status information and sending commands back and forth.

The hardest part for you, in my opinion, is not going to be building the battery. That certainly has its challenges. But reverse engineering the CAN protocol and communications between a Zero BMS, motor controller, and MBB will be hard, There is no public information and no source code available . No configuration of the BMS or MBB is available without dealer tools/login passcodes, and what is available is not particularly useful for configuring an entirely different battery BMS. If the MBB or BMS doesn't receive the expected messages, it will shut down the bike.

I don't think anyone has done what you're suggesting. I think a couple people on here have added more zero batteries to a bike by connecting them without a BMS to an existing zero bike(which IMO is very risky).

You'd sink more than 8k in electrical and software engineers time before you got it to work, unless you have the skills and do it yourself.

If you really want to build a new battery, I'd explore going full custom. The motor controller configuration software is available, and you could figure out how to drive the motor from the manuals/software.  Then find an MBB/BMS/dash combo that is available and has documentation. You'd still have to do some programming to speak to the motor controller, but I think it would be easier. Ironically, you'd be replicating what the Lightning bikes did/do.

Best of luck!.