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Author Topic: Lightfighter Racing Blog  (Read 15232 times)

Frank

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2020, 06:33:14 PM »

Thanks Brian. 

Do you have any advice about using regen during braking?  Does it help maintain battery capacity in any appreciable fashion?  Are you set up to use variable regen or Neutral/Braking?

I know this is highly track-dependent but it would be interesting to learn about any conclusions you may have reached.
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NEW2elec

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2020, 09:48:03 PM »

Brian, yes your definition of performance is spot on to mine in the question. 
Racing curves separate monster straight line HP bikes from, IMO "real" race bikes and highly skilled riders.

I'm just interested in your unique point of view of the biggest challenges to full EV racing domination.

For example:
Are the thermal limits of either the battery, motor, or controller creeping up by the end of a race?
Do the motors and limited gearing options with a single fixed gear give the bike a lesser top speed than the gas counterparts?  I know it dominates on torque and acceleration.
Could an open class allow for a different total design to take advantage of electric component versatility?   

Just a curious interest in the emerging technology.  Thanks.
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ZeroBrian

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2020, 10:24:15 AM »

I'm just interested in your unique point of view of the biggest challenges to full EV racing domination.

For example:
Are the thermal limits of either the battery, motor, or controller creeping up by the end of a race?
Do the motors and limited gearing options with a single fixed gear give the bike a lesser top speed than the gas counterparts?  I know it dominates on torque and acceleration.
Could an open class allow for a different total design to take advantage of electric component versatility?   

Just a curious interest in the emerging technology.  Thanks.

Such a simple question with a very complicated answer...

Yes - each system reaches close to it's operating temperature limit by the end of the race without exceeding them.  This is as designed though as if a system was overheating, we'd come up with a solution - either a better cooling method or by detuning the power.  With v2.0, I'm very happy with the thermal performance (remember that we've been racing in the middle of summer in California's central valley - it's hot!) we've seen so far.  In the future, if the power level continues to increase (or the bike becomes heavier because it needs more battery), I will need to separate the cooling circuits between the motor and inverter as we did on the Brammo prototypes that raced at Isle of Man and Pikes Peak.  The motor can run much hotter than the inverter can. 

The limitations in gearing with a direct drive system (i.e. needing to chose low-end torque and acceleration vs. high-end top speed) can be mitigated with running higher DC bus voltages for a broad range of rpm to work with, selecting windings based on where you believe the ideal peak power point is needed, and by having expanded overall drive ratio options through an intermediate gear reduction as well as the final drive sprockets.   We do tend to give up top speed at faster tracks, but this is also done willingly because we CAN exploit the strengths of an electric drivetrain and gear for excellent acceleration.  At most tracks here on the West Coast, acceleration is the key to the fastest lap times.  Some of the faster, more flowing tracks of Europe may require a different strategy.   

An open class would only help if there were teams willing to participate.  The money required to run even an amateur level racing effort is staggering for the average working stiff (ask me how I know...  :o).  I believe that with enough money and the right people, you could build an electric superbike to compete over a club racing distance with the best production based Superbikes.  But that effort would be prohibitively expensive for most.  The only way EV racing is going to displace gas motorcycle racing is if there's a consistent series to race in that provides a compelling enough package to get teams and sponsors on board.  This is no simple task and as viewers move away from broadcast television to watch events like racing, the business model for a series or event promoter becomes even more difficult.  It seems like the motorcycle industry trails the automotive industry in this regard.  Even in MotoGP, the technologies are far less advanced than those being used in Formula 1 and LeMans with advanced energy recovery systems, turbos, moveable aerodynamics, and alternative fuels.  I would love to see the motorcycle industry adopt a similar passion for advancing technology, but it seems like those golden years of public and commercial interest have passed and now it is up to those who continue to toil away in garages on nights and weekends to make forward progress. 

To provide a glimpse of where Lightfighter is going - I'd like to see our battery capacity increase without compromising weight.  I believe this will be possible within the next 12-18 months.  I'd also like to extract a bit more power while simultaneously reducing the overall weight of the bike.  Power:Weight has been the name of the game all along.  Once we can be fully competitive with race-prepped Supersports, maybe we'll set our sights on those 200+hp Superbikes.  Of course, they'll all have 250hp by then though... 
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MVetter

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« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 10:25:39 PM by MVetter »
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Frank

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2020, 03:54:17 PM »

I tried to open the file you linked but it said I needed access. I sent a request but is there another way to share?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 09:54:54 PM by Frank »
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NEW2elec

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2020, 08:53:23 PM »

Wow Brian, thank you very much for that response.

As a former amateur bicycle racer I know that racing can eat up pay checks quickly, much more so for motorcycles.
I got into it too late in life to compete with the big pros but I did go the route of superior strength to weight ratio myself.
I excelled in hill climbs at 140lbs of solid rider, I'd kill them in the mountains but the flatter courses the guys with tree trunk thighs were too strong to catch.  So I could FEEL the extra power needed for that higher speed and tucking in to get out of dang head winds.

My ideas for motorcycles are just gathered in my head from the last few years of learning about how all the different companies approach the limiting issues.
Things like Porsche's two speed gear box that allows both hard acceleration and higher top speed with less stress to the battery system.
The use of ultra capacitors to capture regen and then dump it back out for for a few seconds of acceleration, again less heat and stress to the batteries.
Perhaps more heat sinking applied to the body work?  The down force wings made of aluminum to serve two purposes instead of a front radiator.

I hope your efforts and success on your current budget catch the attention of some bigger companies and you get the big sponsor money this project deserves.
Best of luck in all future efforts.
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MVetter

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2020, 10:26:17 PM »

I tried to open the file you linked but it said I needed access. I sent a request but is there another way to share?


I think I done goofed, initially. Try again.
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NEW2elec

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2020, 10:52:25 PM »

Man Morgan that last video showing him going around the main building...    Just screaming down that track.   ;D  Awesome!
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ZeroBrian

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2020, 10:54:14 PM »

I tried to open the file you linked but it said I needed access. I sent a request but is there another way to share?
I think I done goofed, initially. Try again.

That worked for me!  Thanks for sending!  Do you have any issue if I use some of these for a blog post about this race on my site?  Random side note - the guy standing on the balcony watching the race with his wife is racer Tom Wilbert, who Troy battled with all season in 2019 in Formula Thunder.
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ZeroBrian

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2020, 11:02:42 PM »

Thanks Brian. 

Do you have any advice about using regen during braking?  Does it help maintain battery capacity in any appreciable fashion?  Are you set up to use variable regen or Neutral/Braking?

I know this is highly track-dependent but it would be interesting to learn about any conclusions you may have reached.

Short answer is that I wouldn't rely on regen to make a race distance.  At Buttonwillow, any significant regen (>1C) is only happening for <15 seconds a lap, so over a full race distance of 6 laps, that's only 1.5 minutes of "charging". 

I do try to minimize the amount of regen and tune for rider feel (it can help find the apex at neutral throttle) as it's making the motor work harder and it's putting input into the chassis/suspension on corner entry.  I also do not play around with varying regen rates as I've found most pro-level riders just want it to be dead consistent (i.e. flat curve).  The regen is off below about 500 rpm to allow easier maneuvering in the pits and rolling to grid, etc...
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MVetter

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2020, 12:59:49 AM »


That worked for me!  Thanks for sending!  Do you have any issue if I use some of these for a blog post about this race on my site?  Random side note - the guy standing on the balcony watching the race with his wife is racer Tom Wilbert, who Troy battled with all season in 2019 in Formula Thunder.

Go ahead and use away to your heart's content.
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shayan

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2020, 05:48:28 AM »

Thank you for this great and insightful thread Brian!

As an EV enthusiast in general, i'm curious if some of these conceptual technologies could reduce energy lost from an EV:
1. Suspension energy recovery
2. Energy recovered from rolling tires (Sumitomo was supposedly working on this)

Will these make a bigger difference in a racing environment where the mechanical forces acting are much higher?

Also, since front brakes are the ones that work the hardest? How far away is the possibility of the front brakes being replaced almost completely by a regen system (say like a front hub motor exclusively for front regen only).

And its really exciting to see the Lightfighter take on the ICE bikes!
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ZeroBrian

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2020, 07:41:47 PM »

Thank you for this great and insightful thread Brian!

As an EV enthusiast in general, i'm curious if some of these conceptual technologies could reduce energy lost from an EV:
1. Suspension energy recovery
2. Energy recovered from rolling tires (Sumitomo was supposedly working on this)

Will these make a bigger difference in a racing environment where the mechanical forces acting are much higher?

Also, since front brakes are the ones that work the hardest? How far away is the possibility of the front brakes being replaced almost completely by a regen system (say like a front hub motor exclusively for front regen only).

And its really exciting to see the Lightfighter take on the ICE bikes!

Always happy to talk technology and racing!  The short answer is that the method of energy recovery would need to come without a corresponding weight penalty for it to be "worth it".  Physics is a bit of a b*tch and it's seldom more evident than at the track.  I would say that the largest gains for a track bike are going to come from improvements to 1. vehicle weight 2. increasing peak power 3. improving aerodynamics and 4. suspension tuning.  You really don't want to mess around with reduced rolling resistance tires as that typically means they have a lower coefficient of friction as well... not great for 50 degree lean angles! 
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ZeroBrian

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2020, 12:02:56 AM »


That worked for me!  Thanks for sending!  Do you have any issue if I use some of these for a blog post about this race on my site?  Random side note - the guy standing on the balcony watching the race with his wife is racer Tom Wilbert, who Troy battled with all season in 2019 in Formula Thunder.

Go ahead and use away to your heart's content.

Heart is now contented... ;) https://www.lightfighter-racing.com/post/the-last-dance-for-version-1-lfr19
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MVetter

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Re: Lightfighter Racing Blog
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2020, 12:05:58 AM »

Cool! Glad the photos are getting some use instead of just languishing in my albums.
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