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[TheRan]

It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.

Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf

And like I said, those that live in flats tend not to be the kind to spend ten grand or more on a bike. Yes the bikes aren't for everyone but the lack of DC fast charging isn't the only or most important thing preventing those people from owning one, there's also the issue of cost and not having someone to park the bike other than on the street. People who actually buy bikes, any type of bike, tend to have the means to be able to park the bike close to their house where it can be charged (or in a garage). People who buy expensive almost definitely do.

[fcvarela]

They can make them, they do make them. Just don't make them available for all bikes. Third parties used to make them as well, very reliably and cheap.

If that's so, could you link to these miracle products?

-Crissa

Diginow, for example? Single 3.3kw chargers about the same size as the 650w one on the FXS.

[fcvarela]

It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.

Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf

And like I said, those that live in flats tend not to be the kind to spend ten grand or more on a bike. Yes the bikes aren't for everyone but the lack of DC fast charging isn't the only or most important thing preventing those people from owning one, there's also the issue of cost and not having someone to park the bike other than on the street. People who actually buy bikes, any type of bike, tend to have the means to be able to park the bike close to their house where it can be charged (or in a garage). People who buy expensive almost definitely do.

There are many reasons why someone might choose a flat over a house that have nothing to do with socio-economics. Also, there might have been a misunderstanding somewhere, I never argued for DC fast charging on these commuter bikes (FXS, S). That would be awesome, but all I asked was if someone knew why they used 650w and 1500w instead of up to 3.3kw on the built-in ac chargers.

[fcvarela]

My original question was if someone knew why Zero opted to build their charging systems the way they did when they could have chosen something slightly different for a similar cost and that would make them appeakling to a much bigger market.

What I found out was that electric bike manufacturers are inadvertently gatekeeping and have convinced themselves that people who can't private park on a garage don't want to or can't afford to own a bike and shouldn't expect brands to have faster chargers as overnight 8h charging is enough for everyone. I'm confused. I understand that things might make sense for someone just the way they are but why deny that something else might be useful for a use case that's not your own?

[TheRan]

It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.

Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf

And like I said, those that live in flats tend not to be the kind to spend ten grand or more on a bike. Yes the bikes aren't for everyone but the lack of DC fast charging isn't the only or most important thing preventing those people from owning one, there's also the issue of cost and not having someone to park the bike other than on the street. People who actually buy bikes, any type of bike, tend to have the means to be able to park the bike close to their house where it can be charged (or in a garage). People who buy expensive almost definitely do.

There are many reasons why someone might choose a flat over a house that have nothing to do with socio-economics. Also, there might have been a misunderstanding somewhere, I never argued for DC fast charging on these commuter bikes (FXS, S). That would be awesome, but all I asked was if someone knew why they used 650w and 1500w instead of up to 3.3kw on the built-in ac chargers.

DC or just faster AC, neither is going to secure many sales for the reason that you're imagining. Sure there are some people who live in flats who also have the money for an expensive bike but don't have a garage to charge in, but they are a minority. The majority of bike owners, especially those who buy expensive bikes, have a means to charge the bike at or close to home over a period of many hours. It's as simple as that.

Zero caters to the home chargers, of which there are many, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you want something else then get something else, like an Energica, or a Livewire, or the Fuell Fllow when/if that comes out, or a Damon, or a Lightning, or get one of the many bikes with a removable battery and bring it indoors to charge.

As for why they're not 3.3kW, size, weight, cost, potentially heat output as the chargers are passively cooled and put most of the waste heat into the battery casing.

[Auriga]

Wow, OK.

This isn't rocket science. Most of the S/DS/FX whatever were designed in 2013 for release in 2014. They chose what would fit and what was affordable at the time. They didn't have Diginows then, and the chargers were not as powerful and small. Level 2 charging wasn't nearly as common. By providing Level 1, they gave everyone a chance to own the bike.

Level 2 charging became far more common, and they added 3kW charge tanks as an option in 2017 for all bikes except the FX. Because people wanted faster charging and stations were expanding. In 2018 they took advantage of faster/denser chargers and upped it to 6kW for the same price and form factor.

In 2019 they released the FST bikes with 3kW and 6kW FST charging standard on the bike. And a host of new features. Interesting to me was that they did not use the Diginow chargers, but I suspect they must have run into FCC/regulatory issues, since they're essentially standard Chinese parts with Brandon's controller FW.

Rumors abound, but there's a DSR/X and FX/E coming soon, I'd be surprised if they didn't build off the new FST platform and probably have LV2 charging integrated.

I wouldn't be surprised if they also released a DCFC tank for the FST plaform too, maybe with a speed somewhat above 12kW. Zero likes modularity, incremental improvements, and accessory revenue.

I personally do not think people will buy electric bikes without a place to charge them in/outside their home. I do not like waiting 30m-1hr for charging every day at a charge station. The technology for 5 min refills like a gasser is just not there. It's a limitation of the electric vehicle category itself.

Could they put a faster charger on the FX today? Sure. Would they bump up the price about 1k? Probably. The FX is the cheapest/lightest electric motorcycle in the field today that's not a fully Chinese bike with questionable specs and a nonexistent dealer network. It's not trying to be a medium range commuter, it's trying to be a cheap, overnight charging, dirt capable fun bike.

Wouldn't most of the people in the center of London take public transit anyway?

[fcvarela]

It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.

Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf

And like I said, those that live in flats tend not to be the kind to spend ten grand or more on a bike. Yes the bikes aren't for everyone but the lack of DC fast charging isn't the only or most important thing preventing those people from owning one, there's also the issue of cost and not having someone to park the bike other than on the street. People who actually buy bikes, any type of bike, tend to have the means to be able to park the bike close to their house where it can be charged (or in a garage). People who buy expensive almost definitely do.

There are many reasons why someone might choose a flat over a house that have nothing to do with socio-economics. Also, there might have been a misunderstanding somewhere, I never argued for DC fast charging on these commuter bikes (FXS, S). That would be awesome, but all I asked was if someone knew why they used 650w and 1500w instead of up to 3.3kw on the built-in ac chargers.

DC or just faster AC, neither is going to secure many sales for the reason that you're imagining. Sure there are some people who live in flats who also have the money for an expensive bike but don't have a garage to charge in, but they are a minority. The majority of bike owners, especially those who buy expensive bikes, have a means to charge the bike at or close to home over a period of many hours. It's as simple as that.

Zero caters to the home chargers, of which there are many, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you want something else then get something else, like an Energica, or a Livewire, or the Fuell Fllow when/if that comes out, or a Damon, or a Lightning, or get one of the many bikes with a removable battery and bring it indoors to charge.

As for why they're not 3.3kW, size, weight, cost, potentially heat output as the chargers are passively cooled and put most of the waste heat into the battery casing.

"The majority of bike owners, especially those who buy expensive bikes, have a means to charge the bike at or close to home over a period of many hours. It's as simple as that. " Im not arguing that this isn't true, I'm saying there are people - a lot of them - who would own a bike if they could charge it *slightly* faster.

I don't understand why having a slightly faster built-in charger would mean not catering for home chargers? And don't understand why people assume there isn't a market for a different use case than their own.

Would you be upset if Zero upgraded their built-in chargers on all bikes to 3.3kw or 6.6kw max? I can't see how that would break someone's ability to charge overnight if they can/want to.

Anyway, it seems people are uncomfortable withe the thought of Zero catering people they wrongly perceive as being on a lower socio-economic status which is certainly an unexpected result.

[fcvarela]

I personally do not think people will buy electric bikes without a place to charge them in/outside their home. I do not like waiting 30m-1hr for charging every day at a charge station. The technology for 5 min refills like a gasser is just not there. It's a limitation of the electric vehicle category itself.

I wouldn't find that particularly pleasant either, but people found ways of fitting those charge times into their routine as part of driving EV cars for example. I go for a walk in the park with the kids on weekends, could easily leave it charging it then for eample. Or while shopping, or while at a museum.

[fcvarela]

I personally do not think people will buy electric bikes without a place to charge them in/outside their home. I do not like waiting 30m-1hr for charging every day at a charge station. The technology for 5 min refills like a gasser is just not there. It's a limitation of the electric vehicle category itself.

I wouldn't find that particularly pleasant either, but people found ways of fitting those charge times into their routine as part of driving EV cars for example. I go for a walk in the park with the kids on weekends, could easily leave it charging it then for eample. Or while shopping, or while at a museum.

Also please note that my question wasn't specifically about faster level 2. Faster level 1 is all I'm wondering why the bikes don't have in 2020.

[Richard230]

I have bought 5 electric motorcycles over the past 11 years and have used them for commuting and now for typically 100-mile round trips, or less. For me, overnight charging in my garage is just what I need. Plus, when I visit a relative, I can always plug into their home outlet with an extension cord to give me plenty of extra charge to get home. I still think that most Zero sales are to commuters or public agencies and 1300 watt charging is fast enough for those customers. As has been mentioned before, most motorcycle enthusiasts that buy electric will also have at least one ICE motorcycle as a backup for longer trips. (Or in my case, 5 ICE motorcycles.) 

[fcvarela]

I have bought 5 electric motorcycles over the past 11 years and have used them for commuting and now for typically 100-mile round trips, or less. For me, overnight charging in my garage is just what I need. Plus, when I visit a relative, I can always plug into their home outlet with an extension cord to give me plenty of extra charge to get home. I still think that most Zero sales are to commuters or public agencies and 1300 watt charging is fast enough for those customers. As has been mentioned before, most motorcycle enthusiasts that buy electric will also have at least one ICE motorcycle as a backup for longer trips. (Or in my case, 5 ICE motorcycles.) 

I know yours is the most common scenario, not arguing there. Just think other use cases have a potential to generate a lot more sales. Orders of magnitude more. Loads of people are buying electrics as their first bike either because they're young and it's their first one or because they would never have considered an ICE one but now that there's an alternative they're starting to ride. There are plenty of incentives these days that make motorcycles a lot more attractive than ever before. I think it's a mistake to ignore the change in demographics.

[TheRan]

"The majority of bike owners, especially those who buy expensive bikes, have a means to charge the bike at or close to home over a period of many hours. It's as simple as that. " Im not arguing that this isn't true, I'm saying there are people - a lot of them - who would own a bike if they could charge it *slightly* faster.

I don't understand why having a slightly faster built-in charger would mean not catering for home chargers? And don't understand why people assume there isn't a market for a different use case than their own.

Would you be upset if Zero upgraded their built-in chargers on all bikes to 3.3kw or 6.6kw max? I can't see how that would break someone's ability to charge overnight if they can/want to.

Anyway, it seems people are uncomfortable withe the thought of Zero catering people they wrongly perceive as being on a lower socio-economic status which is certainly an unexpected result.

I'd love a faster charger. I wasn't arguing against faster charging because it's obviously better, my argument was that faster charging really isn't going to sell many more bikes for the reasons that you give. Yes more people would buy them if they could charge faster when out riding but next to no-one is buying (or would buy) an electric bike without the ability to charge it at home. Doesn't matter if it's 8 hours or 1, it's a massive inconvenience to have to leave your home to charge. It's not like having a gas bike where you can pop into a station for 5 minutes on your way to where ever you're going.

[fcvarela]

but next to no-one is buying (or would buy) an electric bike without the ability to charge it at home.

I completely agree, but feels like were going in circles now, perhaps I phrased it wrong. English is not my native language. If the built-in charger is 3.3kw instead of 1.5kw it doesn't mean you can't charge it at home. It just takes less time that's all...

- 15 amps on 120v = 1.8kw
- 15 amps on 240v = 3.6kw

This would be supply dependent, same charger.

Again, never argued against home charging level 1. Just asked why it itsn't faster.

[Crissa]

Diginow, for example? Single 3.3kw chargers about the same size as the 650w one on the FXS.

You do know Diginow is:

• Out of business
• Thousands of dollars
• Larger than the on board charger for the S-platform bikes (which is almost twice the size of the X-platform charger)
• Not more reliable

Also, you didn't link to them.

-Crissa

[Richard230]

I know nothing about the motorcycle market in the EU countries, but my observation is that the motorcycle market in general in the U.S. is not very strong when it comes to young people buying motorcycles for the first time unless they really need something for cheap transportation and then they will likely buy a used ICE. If there is any documentation that first time riders are buying freeway-legal electric motorcycles in the U.S. market I would like to hear about it.  I am still mystified why my two granddaughters have no interesting driving a car, much less riding a motorcycle, even though my daughter and her husband own and ride 6 motorcycles, one of which is my old 2014 Zero S.