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[valnar]

Well to be fair, KTM is a European company and they released the EX-C Freeride without any 120v support.    Of course, it only has an external charger too.  That thing doesn't look light, so they discovered the same constraint.

Perhaps what you want simply doesn't exist yet?  Believe me, we all want faster charging.

[fcvarela]

Well to be fair, KTM is a European company and they released the EX-C Freeride without any 120v support.    Of course, it only has an external charger too.  That thing doesn't look light, so they discovered the same constraint.

Perhaps what you want simply doesn't exist yet?  Believe me, we all want faster charging.

I think they made the same mistake which is probably why it didn't sell that much. Also, even if it was an attractive bike for comfortable commuting (the bike is really tall), an external charger simply doesn't cut it. There's a lesson to be learned there as well.

[Auriga]

It sounds like you're looking for an S with a charge tank.

 I see 11490 pounds for a base S 7.2 in the UK. So maybe 13k pounds with charge tank which would give a charge times of about 1.5 hours from empty.

Unfortunately we're not at the point where it's like filing up your gas tank. Even with DCFC. And a gas bike will continue to be cheaper all around

Maybe if Zero could get a massive cash influx ala Tesla, and massively expand production, they could lower prices to be on par with gas. The Tesla Model 3 hasn't gotten there either though, with a 36k starting price, so I'm skeptical.

I'm impressed with how far they've gotten at the size they're at. They've certainly outlived a lot of their competitors.

[Crissa]

It doesn't require an expensive battery pack. It requires the same battery pack that's already on the bike.

The battery pack on the Zeros is not compatible with DC CCS charging.

If you want there to be no heavy AC charger, this is what we need.

The big heavy charger, in Europe, is literally in every corner.

No, it has access to more AC wattage.  That AC wattage literally requires a physically bigger charger.  That's your first complaint.

Either people can plug in, or they can't.  Can they, or can they not?  The on board charger is compatible with level 2 charging with the proper cable.  It's just a dumb cable.

-Crissa

[NoMoreIdeas]

It sounds like you're looking for an S with a charge tank.

 I see 11490 pounds for a base S 7.2 in the UK. So maybe 13k pounds with charge tank which would give a charge times of about 1.5 hours from empty.

Was just coming here to say that. You can order a 7.2kw S with a 6.6kw chargetank. However with the x / s platform, even charging at .6C heats the battery up. The charge tank would put you right at about an hour for a full charge if the battery isnt heat soaked.

[fcvarela]

It doesn't require an expensive battery pack. It requires the same battery pack that's already on the bike.

The battery pack on the Zeros is not compatible with DC CCS charging.

If you want there to be no heavy AC charger, this is what we need.

The big heavy charger, in Europe, is literally in every corner.

No, it has access to more AC wattage.  That AC wattage literally requires a physically bigger charger.  That's your first complaint.

Either people can plug in, or they can't.  Can they, or can they not?  The on board charger is compatible with level 2 charging with the proper cable.  It's just a dumb cable.

-Crissa

I wasn't talking about DC charging, I was talking about AC charging faster than 650w on the FXS and 1.5kw on the S lines. Plugging in to a public level 2 station with the adapter is still going to go through the slow built-in charger.

[fcvarela]

It sounds like you're looking for an S with a charge tank.

 I see 11490 pounds for a base S 7.2 in the UK. So maybe 13k pounds with charge tank which would give a charge times of about 1.5 hours from empty.

Was just coming here to say that. You can order a 7.2kw S with a 6.6kw chargetank. However with the x / s platform, even charging at .6C heats the battery up. The charge tank would put you right at about an hour for a full charge if the battery isnt heat soaked.

This is true and is what I ended up doing, but when looking at the elcon/etc superchargers it clearly means it's possible to have 3.3kw charging on a very low size and cost when compared to the built-in ones on either model.

[Crissa]

I wasn't talking about DC charging, I was talking about AC charging faster than 650w on the FXS and 1.5kw on the S lines. Plugging in to a public level 2 station with the adapter is still going to go through the slow built-in charger.

Then you want them to put the physically much larger, much heavier, and cost a third what the bike does... To lower the reliability of the bike because the battery doesn't like to be fast charged every day.

And if they have a plug on the street... Why can't they charge during the night or their work day?  Who is going to take an hour or two out of their commute to charge elsewhere?

Either they have access to charging (you said they do and don't) or they don't.  Either you want a bike that's light and cheap or you don't.

You don't get to have these two things.  The AC charger is bulky, weighty, and expensive.  The DC compatible battery is expensive and heavier and the chargers are also expensive and off board.

Zero cannot change the laws of physics to give you an FX form factor with an S charge tank for daily charging at the size and price point anywhere near what they're currently at.

-Crissa

[TheRan]

At least here in the UK those that choose to ride are typically those that also either have a garage or can park the bike right in front of their house, on a drive way or the top of their front garden. Especially those that are will to spend in the neighbourhood of £10k for a bike. Those that would have to resort to street parking, for example if they live in a flat, also tend to be poorer, and those that aren't choose to rent a garage a short walk from their home.

I live in London. The vast majority of houses here and in other european/asian cities - where a majority of potential customers exist - have neither a front porch, a garden or a garage. Most high paying jobs are in cities as well, which is also why most people who can afford a 10k bike live there. Even areas with dedicated parking don't have electricity much less infrastructure to charge a bike for 8h or more.

The fact is, there is a gigantic market for these bikes and they'd sell like hot pancakes if they were compatible with the infrastructure and city layouts of europe and Asia where a majority of people live in cities and have no private parking spaces regardless of how wealthy they are.

Plenty of houses in London have front gardens, or at least a paved area between the front of the house and the path. Not as big as we have closer to the countryside but large enough for a bike to fit in. Unless you're talking about the City or just outside it, in which case it's such a comparatively small area it's not worth catering to that minority.

If I didn't have the ability to charge at home I probably wouldn't have an electric bike unless it could charge in half an hour or less, and even that would be a pain. I don't want to have to go out every weekend and spend an hour or more of my time waiting for the bike to charge, especially if it's cold or raining. Being able to just go out the front of my house and spend a couple minutes plugging my bike in, not even needing to get fully dressed, and then going back in to carry on doing whatever it is I was doing is a huge convenience.

[fcvarela]

At least here in the UK those that choose to ride are typically those that also either have a garage or can park the bike right in front of their house, on a drive way or the top of their front garden. Especially those that are will to spend in the neighbourhood of £10k for a bike. Those that would have to resort to street parking, for example if they live in a flat, also tend to be poorer, and those that aren't choose to rent a garage a short walk from their home.

I live in London. The vast majority of houses here and in other european/asian cities - where a majority of potential customers exist - have neither a front porch, a garden or a garage. Most high paying jobs are in cities as well, which is also why most people who can afford a 10k bike live there. Even areas with dedicated parking don't have electricity much less infrastructure to charge a bike for 8h or more.

The fact is, there is a gigantic market for these bikes and they'd sell like hot pancakes if they were compatible with the infrastructure and city layouts of europe and Asia where a majority of people live in cities and have no private parking spaces regardless of how wealthy they are.

Plenty of houses in London have front gardens, or at least a paved area between the front of the house and the path. Not as big as we have closer to the countryside but large enough for a bike to fit in. Unless you're talking about the City or just outside it, in which case it's such a comparatively small area it's not worth catering to that minority.

If I didn't have the ability to charge at home I probably wouldn't have an electric bike unless it could charge in half an hour or less, and even that would be a pain. I don't want to have to go out every weekend and spend an hour or more of my time waiting for the bike to charge, especially if it's cold or raining. Being able to just go out the front of my house and spend a couple minutes plugging my bike in, not even needing to get fully dressed, and then going back in to carry on doing whatever it is I was doing is a huge convenience.

We have different experiences in London. I see plenty of houses without any space for a bike, in fact they are the majority in every borough i've ever been in. Plenty have some sort of back garden but very few have space for a bike in front. In any case, population densities clearly mean the vast majority of people don't have access to these. Whomever caters for these people first, captures a huge market.

[TheRan]

At least here in the UK those that choose to ride are typically those that also either have a garage or can park the bike right in front of their house, on a drive way or the top of their front garden. Especially those that are will to spend in the neighbourhood of £10k for a bike. Those that would have to resort to street parking, for example if they live in a flat, also tend to be poorer, and those that aren't choose to rent a garage a short walk from their home.

I live in London. The vast majority of houses here and in other european/asian cities - where a majority of potential customers exist - have neither a front porch, a garden or a garage. Most high paying jobs are in cities as well, which is also why most people who can afford a 10k bike live there. Even areas with dedicated parking don't have electricity much less infrastructure to charge a bike for 8h or more.

The fact is, there is a gigantic market for these bikes and they'd sell like hot pancakes if they were compatible with the infrastructure and city layouts of europe and Asia where a majority of people live in cities and have no private parking spaces regardless of how wealthy they are.

Plenty of houses in London have front gardens, or at least a paved area between the front of the house and the path. Not as big as we have closer to the countryside but large enough for a bike to fit in. Unless you're talking about the City or just outside it, in which case it's such a comparatively small area it's not worth catering to that minority.

If I didn't have the ability to charge at home I probably wouldn't have an electric bike unless it could charge in half an hour or less, and even that would be a pain. I don't want to have to go out every weekend and spend an hour or more of my time waiting for the bike to charge, especially if it's cold or raining. Being able to just go out the front of my house and spend a couple minutes plugging my bike in, not even needing to get fully dressed, and then going back in to carry on doing whatever it is I was doing is a huge convenience.

We have different experiences in London. I see plenty of houses without any space for a bike, in fact they are the majority in every borough i've ever been in. Plenty have some sort of back garden but very few have space for a bike in front. In any case, population densities clearly mean the vast majority of people don't have access to these. Whomever caters for these people first, captures a huge market.

It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.

[fcvarela]

It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.

Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf

[Crissa]

Just because 66% are flats doesn't mean they're all without stoops or bike parking.

But that doesn't change the fact that Zero can't make the chargers faster, smaller, and batteries more reliable to mimic gasoline.

-Crissa

[fcvarela]

Just because 66% are flats doesn't mean they're all without stoops or bike parking.

But that doesn't change the fact that Zero can't make the chargers faster, smaller, and batteries more reliable to mimic gasoline.

-Crissa

They can make them, they do make them. Just don't make them available for all bikes. Third parties used to make them as well, very reliably and cheap, and Zero shut them down by preventing them from working without seriously compromising the bike's warranty and/or forcing firmware updates to use replacement onboard chargers.

[Crissa]

They can make them, they do make them. Just don't make them available for all bikes. Third parties used to make them as well, very reliably and cheap.

If that's so, could you link to these miracle products?

-Crissa