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[fcvarela]

If you don't have a garage, you won't be charging an EV car either.

I think this is what Zero think as well and couldn't be further from the truth outside the US. There are EVs everywhere in Europe and Asia owned by people who don't use/own garages. There is fast, reliable public charging infrastructure almost everywhere.

In this market, a garage isn't a requirement. Fast chargers are.

[valnar]

I have a Zero FXS and yes the 650W charger is annoying.  I think if Zero could have included a better one for a reasonable price, they would have. It's also possible the OEM deals they have prevent them from sourcing a different one, because other EV's certainly have them.  Or maybe it's a weight issue?  Who knows.  We agree that the FX line is hampered by a 650W charger, and I'm sure Zero has been told that over & over.

Zero didn't put a 650W charger in the FX series to tick off European customers.  It's simply an old design that is in need of a refresh, which is how all the newer EV's coming out have better chargers.  Maybe now that the SR/F and SR/S are done, they can focus on their other models.  Hopefully the FX/E will be just that.
https://electrek.co/2020/08/20/zero-trademarks-two-new-electric-motorcycle-models-dsrx-fxe/

[fcvarela]

I have a Zero FXS and yes the 650W charger is annoying.  I think if Zero could have included a better one for a reasonable price, they would have. It's also possible the OEM deals they have prevent them from sourcing a different one, because other EV's certainly have them.  Or maybe it's a weight issue?  Who knows.  We agree that the FX line is hampered by a 650W charger, and I'm sure Zero has been told that over & over.

Zero didn't put a 650W charger in the FX series to tick off European customers.  It's simply an old design that is in need of a refresh, which is how all the newer EV's coming out have better chargers.  Maybe now that the SR/F and SR/S are done, they can focus on their other models.  Hopefully the FX/E will be just that.
https://electrek.co/2020/08/20/zero-trademarks-two-new-electric-motorcycle-models-dsrx-fxe/

The charger inside a charge tank for the S/SR models is 6kw and small enough to be used as a replacement for the FX/FXS. My question wasn't whether they did it to tick european customers, it was why haven't they released a faster charger for people to replace those or even an external charger that's faster than 1kw?

Newer models except SR/S SR/F still have slow 1.5kw built-in chargers, right?

[princec]

6KW is still too slow though. 11KW is about the minimum acceptable, and even then you'll still spend as much time charging as riding if you actually go anywhere. Energica ftw.

Cas

[Richard230]

In the U.S., at least around here, electric-assisted bicycles are a lot more popular than electric motorcycles. I am not sure how attuned Zero is to the European market when it comes to designing their motorcycles.    It has always been my impression that they build motorcycle models primarily for what they think the U.S. market might want. Plus, they tend to purchase parts like chargers off the shelf at a price that they can afford, such as the Calex onboard charger that they have stuck with for quite a while now. I believe that Zero's designs are constrained by finances due to their relatively low yearly sales and their governing board being pretty tight-fisted. No doubt their engineers would like to do a lot of things, but they are constrained by their available budget and for that I can't blame them. More than one electric motorcycle brand has gone under because they ran out of cash and didn't keep their eye on the financial ball.

[NEW2elec]

fcvarela, they make adapter plug cords that let you plug into a J1772 or the EU plug (Menekes?) so people could park the bike and let it pull 650w for the hours your sleeping with no problem.

Remember the 6kW costs about $3600 (for now) and adds weight so be careful what you wish for.

Zero has always stayed on the safe side of charging speed and 6kW puts it very near full 1C charging.  That's a little too close for comfort with a five year warranty.

[valnar]

6KW is still too slow though. 11KW is about the minimum acceptable, and even then you'll still spend as much time charging as riding if you actually go anywhere. Energica ftw.

Cas

Not for an FX.    I don't think these battery types do well with 1C+ charging.  It would be ideal if every bike came with a base charger that could do .5C though.  That's all I would need.

[Crissa]

If you can't charge overnight, you're going to lose the main advantage of an EV.  Zero cannot change that.

Why would I need to charge overnight if I can park near a public charger and charge in 1h?

Because that's far less convenient and much more expensive than plugging in when you just get off the bike.  It requires a big, heavy charger, or an expensive battery pack, and also requires an expensive charging station.

The ability to charge in an hour is something that more than doubles the cost of these bottom end city bikes.

It would be awesome if there were 100v dc chargers on every corner to charge up micro mobility but there aren't.

-Crissa

And no, the 6kw charger wouldn't fit in the space of the 650w charger, and even if it did, it would weigh more and cost about a third or half the bike.

And I charge my S with the onboard charger at a type 2 station when I go over the hill.  If you have type 2 charge points, it accepts the input with an adapter.

[Auriga]

6KW is still too slow though. 11KW is about the minimum acceptable, and even then you'll still spend as much time charging as riding if you actually go anywhere. Energica ftw.

Cas

Not for an FX.    I don't think these battery types do well with 1C+ charging.  It would be ideal if every bike came with a base charger that could do .5C though.  That's all I would need.

And here lies the problem. The FX is a low priced, probably low margin bike. Zero doesn't have a massive production capacity, so I imagine if they could choose between pushing people to the FX or an SR/F they'll push for the SR/F every day of the week. And prioritize development/resources for that platform.

It is certainly possible to mount a faster charge on it. Zero would have to go through all the regulations and certifications to do so, and that's not insignificant. How much more would you pay for a level 2 charger onboard? I'm guessing it would add 1-3k to the price, based on their accessory pricing and recouping sunk costs.

Maybe Otten or similiar will hear the plea of the European owners and release a cheap kit with one 3kW charger, and a harness for an inlet. 

[fcvarela]

Because that's far less convenient and much more expensive than plugging in when you just get off the bike.  It requires a big, heavy charger, or an expensive battery pack, and also requires an expensive charging station.

The ability to charge in an hour is something that more than doubles the cost of these bottom end city bikes.

It would be awesome if there were 100v dc chargers on every corner to charge up micro mobility but there aren't.
-Crissa

It doesn't require an expensive battery pack. It requires the same battery pack that's already on the bike. The big heavy charger, in Europe, is literally in every corner. I'm not talking about newer dc rapid chargers. Public level 2 fast charging in Eurasia is how the vast majority of people get by. They're everywhere and my whole point is a lot more people would buy Zero bikes if they supported fast charging on the commuter oriented models (FXS, S) out of the box.

Someone mentioned using the Zero adapter for using these public stations but again they assumed people use them as if they were their personal garage. They're not. Most are time limited to 4h which is not enough to charge using any of the Zero's built-in chargers on any model.

It seems there is a huge mismatch in how the US users think the rest of the world works and the other way around as well. My point is if Zero is making this same mistake, they simply won't be able to grab the market. My original point was whether this is deliberate or not. It may well be that they don't want to create commuter models that are appealing for the Eurasian market because they wouldn't be able to service those bikes, for example. Who knows.

I do think a non profitable investor dependent company at their stage should focus on growth by creating an appealing product first. The domestic market isn't big enough for them to compete with the big players who are about to join in.

It's ok that we all disagree, but I think it's important to clarify what the reality is in each place for an informed discussion.

[valnar]

I actually don't disagree with you, but show me a comparable bike in another brand with the charger you seek.  The $20K+ Energica, HD and Zeros don't count.  I'd be interested in one too.   

[fcvarela]

I actually don't disagree with you, but show me a comparable bike in another brand with the charger you seek.  The $20K+ Energica, HD and Zeros don't count.  I'd be interested in one too.   

I've never seen one, that's part of the problem. Zero is years ahead in actually having a product out. I'm sure the big brands will start releasing models at some point, and it won't make any sense for them to release them without the features that make them usable on the destination markets. Personal garages are not a big segment of markets outside the US.

They don't have real competitors on the commuter segment that I know of, and future competitors seem to be at least 1-2 years behind in actually releasing something, probably a lot more to release something that the public wants.

My worry is that Zero going under for failing to grab these markets will actually mean a huge delay in motorcycle EV adoption. That would be a terrible shame.

[Auriga]

Because that's far less convenient and much more expensive than plugging in when you just get off the bike.  It requires a big, heavy charger, or an expensive battery pack, and also requires an expensive charging station.

The ability to charge in an hour is something that more than doubles the cost of these bottom end city bikes.

It would be awesome if there were 100v dc chargers on every corner to charge up micro mobility but there aren't.
-Crissa

It doesn't require an expensive battery pack. It requires the same battery pack that's already on the bike. The big heavy charger, in Europe, is literally in every corner. I'm not talking about newer dc rapid chargers. Public level 2 fast charging in Eurasia is how the vast majority of people get by. They're everywhere and my whole point is a lot more people would buy Zero bikes if they supported fast charging on the commuter oriented models (FXS, S) out of the box.

Someone mentioned using the Zero adapter for using these public stations but again they assumed people use them as if they were their personal garage. They're not. Most are time limited to 4h which is not enough to charge using any of the Zero's built-in chargers on any model.

It seems there is a huge mismatch in how the US users think the rest of the world works and the other way around as well. My point is if Zero is making this same mistake, they simply won't be able to grab the market. My original point was whether this is deliberate or not. It may well be that they don't want to create commuter models that are appealing for the Eurasian market because they wouldn't be able to service those bikes, for example. Who knows.

I do think a non profitable investor dependent company at their stage should focus on growth by creating an appealing product first. The domestic market isn't big enough for them to compete with the big players who are about to join in.

It's ok that we all disagree, but I think it's important to clarify what the reality is in each place for an informed discussion.

It's not that dire. Any of the FST platform bikes(SR/F, SR/S) will charge fully in less than 4 hours. With a charge tank they can even finish in just over an hour. And the Europeans get three phase charging, you guys have a ton of high amperage level 2 stations around.

The FX and S are old designs, at a lower price point. I'd almost say the S is effectively replaced by the SR/F,SR/S in every way except price and weight.

They have an appealing product, but they can't give away the farm. I agree that it'd be awesome to have fast charging, large batteries, low weight, and low prices. But you can't have it all.

I'm sure the technology developed for the FST platform(faster chargers, etc.) will come to the cheaper bikes eventually.

[fcvarela]

I actually don't disagree with you, but show me a comparable bike in another brand with the charger you seek.  The $20K+ Energica, HD and Zeros don't count.  I'd be interested in one too.   

Just to clarify, what I'm seeking isn't cheap DC fast charging. That's a few years off no doubt. My pain comes from not being able to use up to 3.3kw on the built-in chargers of any model. I have a hard time believing it would be that much more expensive than the 1.5kw ones on the existing S,DS lines and the 650w on the FX(s).

[fcvarela]

Because that's far less convenient and much more expensive than plugging in when you just get off the bike.  It requires a big, heavy charger, or an expensive battery pack, and also requires an expensive charging station.

The ability to charge in an hour is something that more than doubles the cost of these bottom end city bikes.

It would be awesome if there were 100v dc chargers on every corner to charge up micro mobility but there aren't.
-Crissa

It doesn't require an expensive battery pack. It requires the same battery pack that's already on the bike. The big heavy charger, in Europe, is literally in every corner. I'm not talking about newer dc rapid chargers. Public level 2 fast charging in Eurasia is how the vast majority of people get by. They're everywhere and my whole point is a lot more people would buy Zero bikes if they supported fast charging on the commuter oriented models (FXS, S) out of the box.

Someone mentioned using the Zero adapter for using these public stations but again they assumed people use them as if they were their personal garage. They're not. Most are time limited to 4h which is not enough to charge using any of the Zero's built-in chargers on any model.

It seems there is a huge mismatch in how the US users think the rest of the world works and the other way around as well. My point is if Zero is making this same mistake, they simply won't be able to grab the market. My original point was whether this is deliberate or not. It may well be that they don't want to create commuter models that are appealing for the Eurasian market because they wouldn't be able to service those bikes, for example. Who knows.

I do think a non profitable investor dependent company at their stage should focus on growth by creating an appealing product first. The domestic market isn't big enough for them to compete with the big players who are about to join in.

It's ok that we all disagree, but I think it's important to clarify what the reality is in each place for an informed discussion.

It's not that dire. Any of the FST platform bikes(SR/F, SR/S) will charge fully in less than 4 hours. With a charge tank they can even finish in just over an hour. And the Europeans get three phase charging, you guys have a ton of high amperage level 2 stations around.

The FX and S are old designs, at a lower price point. I'd almost say the S is effectively replaced by the SR/F,SR/S in every way except price and weight.

They have an appealing product, but they can't give away the farm. I agree that it'd be awesome to have fast charging, large batteries, low weight, and low prices. But you can't have it all.

I'm sure the technology developed for the FST platform(faster chargers, etc.) will come to the cheaper bikes eventually.

While thats true, those bikes cost >20k which makes them truly out of reach for any rational person looking for a commuter bike. Also you're looking at multi thousand dollar premiums for any SR/[S|F] model in the UK for example. I don't know anyone who would consider any of those bikes a rational choice for commuting, whether they can afford them or not.