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[NEW2elec]

I think the Exrof motor may by a year or so off.

TheRan :  it's one that exists and won't be changing any time soon.

Not with that attitude.

Let me hook you up to a lie detector and ask which system you would rather have.  Yours or ours?

I can't change your system but having the option of a programed limited/governed bike that an owner can grow into should work even in that system.  Or at least worth a try.

If you have any suggestions of how Zero can save money to lower the price of bikes, which is the number one reason people give for not buying them, put them out there.  Streamlining the inventory is a pretty basic approach but it has seemed like a good idea to me for some time.

[TheRan]

TheRan :  it's one that exists and won't be changing any time soon.

Not with that attitude.

Let me hook you up to a lie detector and ask which system you would rather have.  Yours or ours?

Completely irrelevant, I don't have a choice which system applies to me nor do millions of other Europeans. No matter how much we complain it will not change, it is simply beyond our power to change it and there's not strong enough justification for doing so. The main problem with it is cost, the progressive licensing system and stricter tests are not a bad idea in themselves.

I can't change your system but having the option of a programed limited/governed bike that an owner can grow into should work even in that system.  Or at least worth a try.

If it's user adjustable then it wouldn't abide by the regulations and quite frankly it would be ridiculous to expect people to not just remove/raise the restriction themselves even if they're licence doesn't allow them to. If it's dealer adjustable then it could work (similar to how A2 limiting works) although being an electric bike it could get rather complicated.

If you have any suggestions of how Zero can save money to lower the price of bikes, which is the number one reason people give for not buying them, put them out there.  Streamlining the inventory is a pretty basic approach but it has seemed like a good idea to me for some time.

If that's your justification for getting rid of the non-R bikes then they need to do it world wide, still making them but just not selling them in America isn't going to make much difference. However, they'd still need to have the motors, controllers, and 7.2 batteries for the FX/S models.

[princec]

My thought is that Zero is going to do whatever it is that their retail dealers say their customers want. If they want a higher-voltage platform and CCS charging, that is what Zero will do their best to develop. But if they are receiving feedback that says their customers don't care about high-voltage and CCS and only want L1 and L2 charging at the lowest price possible, that is what they will get. 

This should be screaming "survivorship bias" to you like a klaxon.

Cas

[Richard230]

My thought is that Zero is going to do whatever it is that their retail dealers say their customers want. If they want a higher-voltage platform and CCS charging, that is what Zero will do their best to develop. But if they are receiving feedback that says their customers don't care about high-voltage and CCS and only want L1 and L2 charging at the lowest price possible, that is what they will get. 

This should be screaming "survivorship bias" to you like a klaxon.

Cas

"Survirorship bias" would seem to be a useful concept when it comes to electric motorcycle manufacturers.     (Just check out the defunct brand names in the forums below.    )

[NEW2elec]

TheRan I won't quote each statement since I feel it takes up too much space sometimes. So I'll address 1,2,3.

1.  You can't write or call and complain to your officials and vote against the ones that won't change it?  Not an instant fix but the squeeky wheel gets the oil.
I don't really know where this anti motorcycle stance comes from.  Were there problems with biker gangs or the Punk movement? 
Motorcycles use less energy and take up less space on the roads.  Riding them should be encouraged not making it such a cost and hassle to get up to speed, so to speak.

2.  I'm saying the bike would need a dealer to flash the MBB to open the full power of the SR.  So a weak bike to learn on and then you pass the test and get full power.  Like a motorcycle bar mitzvah.  Seems like a better idea the more I think about it.

3.  There are three battery setups.  The 3.6kWh units for power tanks and FX/S modular units (higher cost now).  The 7.2 long bricks are either placed separately (FX/S or US DS/S) or in groups of two, AKA the 14.4 monolith. That is pretty efficient.
The bike model offerings could get paired down to gain efficiencies.
The FX/S should stick with the modular format IMO since it gives the platform more flexibility. 
The SRF/S is new and selling very well so it stays of course.  They could get the Limiter as well really. (Hey Zero, good idea here)
The DSR/SR feels like a proper if not truly sporty motorcycle and if the bike were setup to be limited electronically it could be billed as a bike that grows with you and be a nice selling point for those who want a full powered bike but have to wade through red tape to get there.

That leaves the old DS/S to receive the Darwin award.   
And since there would be no true DS/S models there would be no need to "R" them so the DSR/SR loses their R and the DS/S are reborn as stronger bikes.

And I thank you.

[infiniteoffset]

1.  You can't write or call and complain to your officials and vote against the ones that won't change it? 

You can do that, but let's be honest who will win if bureaucracy of multiple European countries or few electric motorcycle enthusiasts who don't like new Zero lineup.

Motorcycles use less energy and take up less space on the roads.  Riding them should be encouraged not making it such a cost and hassle to get up to speed, so to speak.

I think that this is getting better and better. For example in my country (and other countries as well) you can ride Zero S (but not SR) without having driving licence for motorcycles, all you need is driving licence for cars that is 2 years old. That's why Zero S 14.4 is important for europe market.

2.  I'm saying the bike would need a dealer to flash the MBB to open the full power of the SR.  So a weak bike to learn on and then you pass the test and get full power.  Like a motorcycle bar mitzvah.  Seems like a better idea the more I think about it.

Sounds good, but there are few problems. How would government check your power limit? With modern vehicles having IoT units, this could lead to some scary surveillance.
Also let's be honest that Zero is not that big company to make this working. But there will be changes in laws due to emobility for sure.

[TheRan]

TheRan I won't quote each statement since I feel it takes up too much space sometimes. So I'll address 1,2,3.

1.  You can't write or call and complain to your officials and vote against the ones that won't change it?  Not an instant fix but the squeeky wheel gets the oil.
I don't really know where this anti motorcycle stance comes from.  Were there problems with biker gangs or the Punk movement? 
Motorcycles use less energy and take up less space on the roads.  Riding them should be encouraged not making it such a cost and hassle to get up to speed, so to speak.

2.  I'm saying the bike would need a dealer to flash the MBB to open the full power of the SR.  So a weak bike to learn on and then you pass the test and get full power.  Like a motorcycle bar mitzvah.  Seems like a better idea the more I think about it.

3.  There are three battery setups.  The 3.6kWh units for power tanks and FX/S modular units (higher cost now).  The 7.2 long bricks are either placed separately (FX/S or US DS/S) or in groups of two, AKA the 14.4 monolith. That is pretty efficient.
The bike model offerings could get paired down to gain efficiencies.
The FX/S should stick with the modular format IMO since it gives the platform more flexibility. 
The SRF/S is new and selling very well so it stays of course.  They could get the Limiter as well really. (Hey Zero, good idea here)
The DSR/SR feels like a proper if not truly sporty motorcycle and if the bike were setup to be limited electronically it could be billed as a bike that grows with you and be a nice selling point for those who want a full powered bike but have to wade through red tape to get there.

That leaves the old DS/S to receive the Darwin award.   
And since there would be no true DS/S models there would be no need to "R" them so the DSR/SR loses their R and the DS/S are reborn as stronger bikes.

And I thank you.

1. No I can't. This isn't an issue in just my county, or even just my country, this is the whole of Europe. What I think of the system and whatever I do to try and change it would make absolutely no difference at all.

2. And that method could possibly work, it's basically how the A2 restriction works. However there is no precedent (that I know of) for restricting electric bikes to the A1 class, or derestricting them out of it. As I say it's possible but it would require some work on Zero's part and they'd need to homologate a separate version specifically as an A1 bike, run it through all the tests like they did with the current "11kW" versions.

3. There is no modular FX/S in Europe and in America it costs an additional grand to get a 7.2 modular over a fixed one. And if you get rid of the S/DS you get rid of the 7.2 option for those, so people who don't want the range or weight of the 14.4 (or don't have the money for it) and stuck with the FX/S with its slower charging, no storage, and less comfortable and higher seat. What you're proposing would mean that I, an owner of a 7.2 DS, would have no option to upgrade to in the future without making some sacrifices.

[NEW2elec]

Hi infiniteoffset, welcome aboard.

So 1a.
At the very least all motorcyclists should complain about a system that's a money grab and a hindrance to people riding motorcycles.

1b.
That is our law for sub 50cc gas scooters as well.  Here you basically know that that person had a DUI or lost their license and so now they have to get a scooter.  They end up being a dangerous obstacle in the road for people going much faster.

2.
How do they check the power on the EU Zero S bikes now?
I'd guess they just trust Zero will comply with the power limit after maybe a first test.
No difference with a "grow with you" S.  Comes into the country weak.  Then the rider comes in and gives their full power motorcycle license number to the Zero Dealer.  The dealer ups the bikes power and has a record that the guy passed his test.

[TheRan]

They don't test every single bike, Zero just sends one off to be tested. It's run through a specific testing procedure to determine the maximum continuous power output so not just whatever it peaks at on a dyno. From my understanding the testing is done at certain speeds so an R model should end up using the same power at the same speed, however I think the speed is a certain percentage of the maximum speed (hence why the Euro bikes are limited to 86mph instead of 98mph) so it might require bringing the R models all the way down from 102mph to 86mph. Of course once the bike is derestricted that limit could be raised again.

[NEW2elec]

TheRan,

1. That's just sad.  How did everyone get rid of all the all powerful kings that used to rule Europe? 

2. In the way the app limits the bike's power it could be set limited from the factory but not customer adjustable.  No need to reply they won't do this, I'm just putting it out there as what could be.

3. I'm saying they Should go back to the modular FX/S for everyone as it was just way more flexible with letting people either have extra batteries or take them indoors to charge for those with no garage.
As for charging I'd like to see all of them (Gen2) with the new smaller 3kW chargers standard.
My theory is that by having a DS/S that is what was the 14.4 DSR/SR is that for every unit you could now MSRP that bike to maybe $13.5K.
Split the difference between the $11k 7.2 DS/S and the $16k 14.4 DSR/SR.
When you look at the two bikes you get twice the battery for 50% more price as it is now.  Plus the extra power of the R bikes thrown in.

It would be a much better deal and it will resale to a much bigger demographic that mostly want as much range as they can get.
Get cases for storage.  Sorry that reason isn't good enough to keep the 7.2 DS/S

Ok that's all the suggestions I'm giving today to help Zero and the EU.  Like I said don't worry neither side will use them but it's good to challenge people's thinking sometimes.  That's how the world gets better.
I'm going to eat, watch football and ride later on.  It's a beautiful fall day in GA.
Cheers

[infiniteoffset]

Hi infiniteoffset, welcome aboard.

Hello, thanks for welcoming me. 

So 1a.
At the very least all motorcyclists should complain about a system that's a money grab and a hindrance to people riding motorcycles.

I mean, yeah.

1b.
That is our law for sub 50cc gas scooters as well.  Here you basically know that that person had a DUI or lost their license and so now they have to get a scooter.  They end up being a dangerous obstacle in the road for people going much faster.

In some countries they upgraded this to 125cc with automatic snifter where Zero S falls to. Yay.

2.
How do they check the power on the EU Zero S bikes now?
I'd guess they just trust Zero will comply with the power limit after maybe a first test.
No difference with a "grow with you" S.  Comes into the country weak.  Then the rider comes in and gives their full power motorcycle license number to the Zero Dealer.  The dealer ups the bikes power and has a record that the guy passed his test.

If the bike can be unlocked to higher level by user, then government will want to check it through some internet API or something for sure. But if this will come it's distant future and maybe not something we even want (something something Chinese social credit system).
We know that limiting already works since there are electric vehicles. For example Sur Ron has road legal and dirt versions that are the same bike, one just have limiter installed (that can be easily removed, but let's ignore that since we discuss legality here). So they could make S and SR based on a same hardware for sure. Would that be cheaper? Only Zero company knows. But it wouldn't have the grow feature, because once you would change the limiter it would be illegal to ride on it.
How I imagine the grow feature could be implemented without changing the legislation is that the limiter could be changed in official Zero service. Before changing it, you would cancel it's registration. Service would change the limiter and give you new papers. Then you would register it again. Maybe something like this could work without big changes in legislation, I'm just rambling here so IDK.

[Crissa]

Hey, software limited hardware would be more reliable, and Zero and others have been nudging EU officials to allow it.

Maybe someday when software unlocks are normal across many manufacturers it'll be a real option.

-Crissa

[EDoggN]

I just wanna know if there are gonna being any updates at all to the SRS and/or SRF models for 2021..

[NEW2elec]

EDoggN that's a 99% no.  There are a couple listings for 2021 SRSs on Cycle Trader with the same blue and grey setup and still the 14.4 battery.  So if you don't know if you should wait to get one this year I'd say no need to wait go on and pull the trigger.

[EDoggN]

Soooo......you saying there is still a chance..lol