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[petewarm]

Any one help me on the way the charging is controlled on the SR/F?

This starts because I'm fed up with the charging cables taking up most of my topbox.  I have a premium with a recently fitted rapid charge option, so I've lost the tank space.

For the UK we have:
1)Motorway services: Tethered cables (Fast mode  3) 3+3+6kW = 12kW, no cable required. Use this most of the time but have come to hate these motorway services, they are boring places.
2) Most non motorway charging stations are around 22kW, I need a cable and I have a short one from Khons (thanks to this forum) at 1.5m long.  I get 10kW approx due to the fact that the cable is limited to 16A per phase by the PP resistor. (The 32A version they offered was substantially heavier....)
3) I have the Zero single phase charge cable fitted to a UK 13A plug for a household socket, running at 10A. I get ~2.5 kW using one of the chargers.  Its a big cable! but needed when I go off to stay with friends.

I have come to understand that the type2 3 phase connections are the way froward in the UK/EU, but that they are totally over engineered for motorcycles, being designed for much higher currents than we need. Hence the bulk.

I have a plan to combine the latter two cables and fit then under the seat.  But I need to understand how the PP and CP control lines work. My understanding so far:
PP) I understand from perusing the IEC docs that this has a resistor across to the earth (PE) terminal, value depending on the cable current capacity.  From looking at the Khons cable, the resistor is only connected at the bike end, ie there is no comms back to the main supply. so it appears to tell the bike the maximum it current it can have. I think this resistor is what limits me to ~10kW above.
CP) I get that this is a PWM signal, and that the % of PWM tells the bike what charge current it can have.  Again this appears to have no connection to the mains supply apart from an ability to turn off the mains under some circumstances.

What I cant understand is the relationship between these two systems, I am assuming that both systems are in effect concurrently on the SR/F?

If so, is there any reason why I could make a cable which just had :
1 phase, 13A No CP connection, just a PP resistor to tell the bike it can only charge at 13A?

Any comments much appreciated, Thanks, great forum

[TEV]

Unfortunately you can't just use a resistor, the pilot signal uses PWM (pulse with modulation) to let the charger know how much power it's allowed to take from the circuit.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

[remmie]

PP : each cable has that resistor at both connectors. So both the EVSE (Charging station) and the Bike understand the maximum current the cable can tolerate. (680 Ohm for 16A 220 Ohm for 32A). As said both connectors each have a resistor but they are not connected by a wire inside the cable.

CP : The PWM signal has 2 functions. The duty cycle of the signal from the EVSE to the Bike tells the current that is available from the EVSE.
Without this PWM signal the Bike will NOT engage any charging ! It is programmed that way because that is what is required by the Standards.

The second function of the CP signal is that the bike is to tell the EVSE when it can activate the big relais to give power to the power pins. This is also a requirement from the standard. The "communication" is quite simple and it takes basically just a diode and one or 2 resistors (just one works for most stations but the standard requires 2 to differentiate between 2 states (standby and charge))

The Lowest current of 3 systems will prevail :
* If the charger on the bike has a current rating that is lower than the PP resistor and the CP PWM signal than it will obviously draw what that charger is capable of. (a 10 amp charger will not charge more than 10A even on a 32A station)
* if the PP resistor tells the EVSE and Bike that its is a 16A cable, the bike will (have to) limit the current to 16A and it will not draw more than that 16A. If the EVSE measures that more current is drawn than the cable can handle, it will stop the charging by cutting the power.
* If the CP PWM signal from the EVSE tells the bike that there is only 10A available, the Bike tells the chargers that 10A is the max. This can happen during "load balancing" when multiple EVSE's share a supply cable. So a 22kW station would normally advertise 32A but during high power demand situations with multiple chargers it could even be as low as 6A (personal experience!)

Because of the rather odd configuration of the chargers on the premium SR/F (and SR/S) with Rapid charger which has a 3kW (13A) charger on Phase 1, another 3kW (13A) charger on Phase 2 and a 6kW (26A) charger on phase 3 :
* your 16A 3 phase cable will yield 3kW + 3kW + 3.5kW of charging power (total 9.5 kW). With charging losses the display on the Bike (which shows DC power and current into the battery rather than AC power) will show around 9.1 or 9.2 kW.

Long story short, without a CP signal, the Bike will not start charging!
But there are (small) solutions for it. search for simple EVSE, or open EVSE or DIY EVSE.

[petewarm]

Thanks Remmie, Ive got the circuitry, was missing the overview, which you have kindly provided.
Ill post here when Ive worked out how to do a twin cable

Couldn't do all this without you guys in the forum. Thanks.

[DonTom]

Unfortunately you can't just use a resistor, the pilot signal uses PWM (power with modulation)

PWM=Pulse Width Modulation.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[TEV]

Unfortunately you can't just use a resistor, the pilot signal uses PWM (power with modulation)

PWM=Pulse Width Modulation.

-Don-  Reno, NV

I stand corrected.

[petewarm]

Thanks everyone.  I've now made a homemade cable that fits under the seats (with the "silly tray" removed).  The PMW chip and 12V supply/relay came from evracing.cz, and its pretty simple to build the circuitry into the type 2 socket. I left mine permanently at 10A with a resistor. 

Anyone want to buy a little used UK Zero charge lead at 50% list?

I've also got a 1.5m cable from Khons for 3 phase charging when a cable isn't provided. 10kW indicated charge as its the 16A (2.5mm2) lighter version. Sadly cant get that under the seat too, although I was working on a way to dump both type 2 sockets and permanently wire them in, but I've discarded that, at least until the warranty has run out a bit further...

Once again, thanks to you all.

[remmie]

Nice job Pete,

But you can make the type 2 to type 2 cable a lot smaller by replacing the big white "handheld" covers by much smaller covers.
I've used simple PVC pipe covers (50mm) and later custom 3D printed covers to make the cable much smaller.
In the attached pictures an example of this much smaller cable next to a 3phase 32A cable which is wayyy too big to carry on a motorcycle.
Like yourself I also have the premium and rapid charger (12kW total) which off course is awesome regarding charging speed but it takes away all of the storage on the SR/F

Not only the type 2 to type 2 cable can be made much smaller. Also the granny charger can be made much smaller, as you can see in the pictures. The bottom half of the type 2 connector (with phase 2 and 3) can be cut off as it serves no purpose. I've managed to cram all the CP signal components in a 3D printed cover and now this connector is also very small.

For single phase type 2 to type 2 there is also a company "charge amps" which makes type 2 cables with relatively small connectors. Unfortunately it is only a single phase cable. But they have said (it is somewhere on Facebook) that they will make a 3 phase version of that cable in the near future.

[Hans2183]

nice remmie! Do you have instructions somewhere on how to make these cables?

For the type2 to type2 charge cable, what cable spec did you use for example and all you need is a resistor on both ends? is it a straight connection from pin to pin or does it cross somewhere (sorry total noob here on charge cables). I know that these white, no brand, type2 pistols are easy to come by without cable. Not sure if that includes the resistors (I would think so).

And for the 220V charger, you still have a brick in between right? Or is this really just 1 phase connection on these 3 top pins? If so what controls how many amps it will draw?

[Zelidar]

My own 2 cents on this topic. I made my own 2 m & 1250 g cable in late March this year, I found all others being too bulky, too long and thus too heavy. I must have been using it for over a hundred times by now and it still performs flawlessly even in the hot summer days. It uses 5 x 1.5mm2 and 2 x 0.5mm2 (but 1 x 0.5mm2 would have been enough). Largely enough copper for occasionally charging at 6 kW when on the go. A remark on the cable section, as it does get slightly warm during charging, I would use 2 mm2 if charging at 12 kW so if I ever get the Charge Tank I will also need a new type2 cable.

As shown in the electric schema (which I found afterward), do not forget to put those 680 Ohm resistors on both ends between PE and PP (I ignored that at first which resulted in a FEHLER 04000...).

[remmie]

nice remmie! Do you have instructions somewhere on how to make these cables?

For the type2 to type2 charge cable, what cable spec did you use for example and all you need is a resistor on both ends? is it a straight connection from pin to pin or does it cross somewhere (sorry total noob here on charge cables). I know that these white, no brand, type2 pistols are easy to come by without cable. Not sure if that includes the resistors (I would think so).

And for the 220V charger, you still have a brick in between right? Or is this really just 1 phase connection on these 3 top pins? If so what controls how many amps it will draw?

not really a build instructions bit I can give some guidance.

The white generic type 2 connectors without cable do usually come with a resistor installed.

For the diy "granny charger" you would need a few components.
Obviously a Schuko cable rated to at least 13A as each charger on the SR/S and SR/F draws that amount of current.
The phase, neutral and earth of the Schuko can be directly connected to the L1, N and PE pins of the type 2 connector. The standard requires a relay so the 230V is only switched when the bike is ready but bike does not care if 230V is already present before the PWM signal so the relay can be omitted.
Now the bike will not charge without that PWM signal. You will need a 230V to 12V power supply unit (smelliest available) and a PWM signal generator. a good example is the "simple EVSE" by EVracing.
http://evracing.cz/simple-evse

Personally I've made my own version with an ATTiny45 and some auxiliary components to make it even smaller (you saw the cut-down type 2 connector, the PWM signal generating components are in the back cover of it)

In the attachment you will find a connection diagram for 3 different cables (all for the type 2 versions of the SR/F & SR/S)
1) granny charger, for charging from a household socket
2) for an SR/F or SR/S standard or premium without rapid charger (3 or 6 kW total)
3) for an SR/F or SR/S with rapid charger module (12 kW)

All the cables used are non-EV cables. Normal EV-cable are very thick and heavy, especially if it is a 32A version (6 sqmm per wire)

For example take the bottom cable in the attachment. It is a 7G1.5 sqmm cable. If you look carefully L3 is connected with 2 wires instead of 1 effectively creating a 3 sqmm cable.
This is done because of the configuration of the chargers on the SR/f and SR/S as you can see on the far right of the schematic.
1 charger of 3kW is connected to L1 (standard and premium versions)
the second charger of 3kW is connected to L2 (only premium version)
the optional rapid charger module of 6kW is connected to L3

Each 3kW charger draws around 13 amps at 230Volt. the 6kW rapid charger module draws 26 amps. A 1.5 sqmm wire can quite easily handle that 13A per wire.
So L1 : 1.5 sqmm, 3kW charger, 13A, no problem
L2 is the same as L1
L3 : 2x1.5 sqmm, 6kW charger, 26A, 13A per wire, no problem
Neutral : now there is where the three phase system comes in handy. You would expect a neutral current of 13+13+26 = 52 amps. However because each phase lags 120 degrees in time, only 13A will flow through the neutral wire, hence making a single 1.5 sqmm wire enough to carry the current. The neutral wire only carries the unbalanced current of the system.

Normally for an SR/F or SR/S you would need a 32A 3 phase cable to take full advantage of all the chargers and charge within the hour.
A 7G1.5 cable is much smaller than a 3 phase 32A EV cable, It is even smaller than a single phase 16A EV cable if you pick the right cable.

I used the Lapp Olflex Classic 810 7G1.5 cable. It is a high flexible chain cable
https://www.conrad.nl/p/lapp-0026153-geleiderkettingkabel-olflex-fd-classic-810-7-g-150-mm-grijs-per-meter-602078

I also ditched the big pistol grip handheld covers and used a PVC endcap of 50 mm for the male connector and I believe 60mm for the female side. A pigtail cable gland supports the cable. See the photo in my previous post in this topic. This makes the cable much smaller, much lighter and still capable of fully using the 12kW charging capabilities of the SR/F

For "just" premium SR/F without the rapid charger module you can use the schematic as shown in the middle. Again no need to use a special EV cable but just a 5G1.5 cable (for example the Lapp olflex 810 classic 5G1.5)
By not connecting L3 and using that wire for the CP you have a very small and light cable instead of the otherwise required 3 phase 16A cable

Well, to concluded a very technical explanation. If you have questions, just ask
Hope it helps

[Zelidar]

... Normally for an SR/F or SR/S you would need a 32A 3 phase cable to take full advantage of all the chargers and charge within the hour.
A 7G1.5 cable is much smaller than a 3 phase 32A EV cable, It is even smaller than a single phase 16A EV cable if you pick the right cable.
I used the Lapp Olflex Classic 810 7G1.5 cable. It is a high flexible chain cable ...

Fantastic information remmie, great forum indeed!

I am considering upgrading my Premium with a Rapid Charger and was again wondering about how to get the smallest and lightest possible cable. The one I use today is fine for 6kW but I know I'd need something better for 12kW. In the schema you wrote "Use this at your own risk" but I suppose you have made and are already using such a 7G1.5 cable to charge at 12kW?

[remmie]

Yep, i have used that cable since I had my rapid charger installed last oktober.
Recently we did a 12 day road trip through Germany, Austria and Switzerland which totaled 3900 km. Almost exclusively charged with that cable. Some hotels did have a EV charger or household socket but that was 10% of the charges tops. I reckon something like twice a day, 45 minutes per charge. The cable barely gets warm.

At first I used it as just a cable as shown in the picture. But having to carry it every time in a backpack got a bit annoying (no storage when the rapid charger is installed)
Then I designed a 3D printed cover for the female connector so that it could be (semi)permanently installed on the bike male connector (behind the charge flap). Then I routed the cable to the silly tray area in the tail and coiled up the male end up there. That works great as now the cable is always installed but also easily accessible by removing the passenger seat. The charging flap can still be closed so it is a very stealthy install.

The silly tray obviously had to be removed to make enough room. I cut off the sides of the silly tray so the view from the side would be look stock.
Another modification that had to be done was to add a switch on the PP resistor of the female connector. Otherwise the bike senses the installed connector and goes into charging mode.

[Zelidar]

What you did is truly stunning Remmie, and I am weighting my words. Many thanks again for sharing this information and those pictures.

Would you care to share the 3d models for the micro Type 2 cases which you have made, also what is the length that you have chosen for your 7G1.5 cable?

This modification is a perfect match for the Rapid Charger extension as it also partially solves the lost space in the tank area. If you don't mind, I would like to attempt an exact copy of what you did.

[Hans2183]

Thanks Zelidar and Remmie for sharing this information! Great work.

For me I just needed a slightly shorter cable . The one I currently have is 4m which is a bit too much. Opening those up I discovered the pins are crimped and I don't have such a big crimping tool and can't find just the pins to crimp new ones anyway...

Just getting 2 pistol type 2 connectors seemed a bit pricey at most shops matching the price for a full cable. Except maybe for aliexpress and similar chinese options that you have to wait a month for to arrive. But evservice.eu also has them and what is more, they just confirmed to me that the pins are connected to the cables using screw connections. Also they come with instructions and resistors for both 16 and 32A configurations.

Link to their website and this product https://www.evservice.eu/type-2-female-stekker#/attributes=0--1-9026 . I just ordered a set so I'll be working out a cable for myself this weekend.