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[Crissa]

And then there's people like me who drove in the rain all winter without problems.  And who doesn't have a garage.

*shrug*

-Crissa

[TEV]

The chargers are DEFECTIVE, bad design.  I need a 3RD and know others that are also on their 3RD or 4TH charger.  They are no IP65 as claimed and should be IP67 or IP68.  Every time it rains owners are posting on our local forum that there are problems and than inevitably someone posts that their charger is shorting or stopped charging past 70-80%.

it's happening to the bikes that have the isolation problem, once a Zero kill an onboard charger, it will keep killing them at a slower or faster rate. In the automotive industries it's standard to have the CAN communication galvanic isolated, Zero missed that memo.

[Auriga]

The chargers are DEFECTIVE, bad design.  I need a 3RD and know others that are also on their 3RD or 4TH charger.  They are no IP65 as claimed and should be IP67 or IP68.  Every time it rains owners are posting on our local forum that there are problems and than inevitably someone posts that their charger is shorting or stopped charging past 70-80%.

it's happening to the bikes that have the isolation problem, once a Zero kill an onboard charger, it will keep killing them at a slower or faster rate. In the automotive industries it's standard to have the CAN communication galvanic isolated, Zero missed that memo.

Maybe I missed the memo, but has anyone actually shown a charger that failed due to isolation issues? The only tear downs I've seen show small fires with an indeterminate cause. Zero is probably the only one that could have the answer, if they've torn down enough of the returned defective chargers. RonIL suggests water ingress, and there was conjecture it was bad diodes or capacitors, or it could be something else entirely.

At any rate, I replaced a charger on my 19DS once, and then never needed another one.

[Richard230]

Good news! AF1 Racing has just notified me that they are shipping the new charger that I ordered a couple of weeks ago. Considering that their ordering computer system said it would be between 3 and 4 weeks before it would be shipped, I am happy with the store's service. They even sent me a photo of the new charger. Photo attached.

I'll keep my fingers crossed this is a good one and will get me back on the road again. 

[Crissa]

When a charger fails, a small internal fire occurs as the electricity tries to find the shortest path until all those paths are burned.

It's like having a something big up on a clothesline, hanging from the clothespins:  Each pin is carrying a portion of the weight, and it's fine.  But if some of those clothespins come loose, more weight is spread between the remaining clothespins.  Same with amperage in the circuit.  And eventually (usually quickly) each branch blows in succession as they're shouldering more and more of the load.  And your item falls from the clothesline.

Or your charger has a tiny fire inside.

-Crissa

PS:  Good news on the shipping!  They're pretty prompt once a person gets involved.  I assume they give pessimistic answers because they don't know how long the fetches will take.

[Richard230]

When a charger fails, a small internal fire occurs as the electricity tries to find the shortest path until all those paths are burned.

It's like having a something big up on a clothesline, hanging from the clothespins:  Each pin is carrying a portion of the weight, and it's fine.  But if some of those clothespins come loose, more weight is spread between the remaining clothespins.  Same with amperage in the circuit.  And eventually (usually quickly) each branch blows in succession as they're shouldering more and more of the load.  And your item falls from the clothesline.

Or your charger has a tiny fire inside.

-Crissa

PS:  Good news on the shipping!  They're pretty prompt once a person gets involved.  I assume they give pessimistic answers because they don't know how long the fetches will take.

I was a little worried that the Zero charger might have been back-ordered, considering the stories that you hear here and there. Hearing that it was shipped and will be arriving via UPS next Thursday. I'll be installing it next weekend.

[TEV]

Maybe I missed the memo, but has anyone actually shown a charger that failed due to isolation issues? The only tear downs I've seen show small fires with an indeterminate cause. Zero is probably the only one that could have the answer, if they've torn down enough of the returned defective chargers. RonIL suggests water ingress, and there was conjecture it was bad diodes or capacitors, or it could be something else entirely.

At any rate, I replaced a charger on my 19DS once, and then never needed another one.

First I admit that I have no proof to show, but , I find hard to believe that the same owner has "bad luck" over and over again, and it's getting bad chargers years apart. 
I don't care if it's an isolation fault,  unfortunate routing of the traction cables, controller,  or motor faults  ( when you deal with hundreds of Ampers, magnetic fields are very unpredictable). I love my Zero, but I have to be realistic,  and acknowledge that they are not shielding the traction cables,  and the CAN doesn't have galvanic isolation.

I noticed your posts before,  and I believe that you're either a Zero employee, or dealer. I am not accusing of anything,  I am just saying what I believe.

The fact that your 2019 Zero already killed one charger doesn't proof anything,  maybe, just didn't had time to kill the second one yet.

I sold my 2019 DSR onboard charger after only 700 miles to someone that had a Zero that already killed two or three chargers, and my charger "went bad" too, after just a few charging sessions.

More likely the percentage of affected bikes is low, but, because only the owners that have that problem are posting here, it's making it look like a "common problem ".

[Richard230]

Here are a few comment regarding my original charger's lifespan: I was going to mention how many times it had recharged my battery pack, but when I looked at my app just now I was surprised to see that it showed only one recharge time and 77 miles traveled. Apparently the latest firmware update session had reset those numbers back to zero on the app. I sure hope receiving the new firmware and then the charger blowing up was just a coincidence and had nothing to do with the firmware revision. 

Anyway, the charger lasted two years and 9 months and 7,000 miles of usage. I would say that the typical charging time was usually around 5 hours. Only once did I run the battery pack down to "00" and that recharge took 15 hours. When the charger failed this time it ran for about 4 hours at around 10.5 amps before it stopped and my garage started smelling like garlic. SOC was increased from 41% to 69% at 106V, where it is now.

When the charger failed on my 2014 S, it had the low SOC symptom where it would stop charging at 98 SOC and then get progressively lower over a period of two years, until it would not charge past 88% and a corresponding voltage showing on the app. That was when I replaced it with a new charger. My daughter still has that bike and the old charger is stored in her garage which could have become a backup if another charger should fail and no replacement was available. But if that happens to me again, I really think the solution would be to use a stand-alone off-board charger as has been suggested by others and just give up on the OBC, unless Zero comes up with an entirely new unit that is more robust - which seems unlikely to me.   

[Auriga]

Maybe I missed the memo, but has anyone actually shown a charger that failed due to isolation issues? The only tear downs I've seen show small fires with an indeterminate cause. Zero is probably the only one that could have the answer, if they've torn down enough of the returned defective chargers. RonIL suggests water ingress, and there was conjecture it was bad diodes or capacitors, or it could be something else entirely.

At any rate, I replaced a charger on my 19DS once, and then never needed another one.

First I admit that I have no proof to show, but , I find hard to believe that the same owner has "bad luck" over and over again, and it's getting bad chargers years apart. 
I don't care if it's an isolation fault,  unfortunate routing of the traction cables, controller,  or motor faults  ( when you deal with hundreds of Ampers, magnetic fields are very unpredictable). I love my Zero, but I have to be realistic,  and acknowledge that they are not shielding the traction cables,  and the CAN doesn't have galvanic isolation.

I noticed your posts before,  and I believe that you're either a Zero employee, or dealer. I am not accusing of anything,  I am just saying what I believe.

The fact that your 2019 Zero already killed one charger doesn't proof anything,  maybe, just didn't had time to kill the second one yet.

I sold my 2019 DSR onboard charger after only 700 miles to someone that had a Zero that already killed two or three chargers, and my charger "went bad" too, after just a few charging sessions.

More likely the percentage of affected bikes is low, but, because only the owners that have that problem are posting here, it's making it look like a "common problem ".

Guilty as charged, I've been working at a Zero dealer for a while. What I've noticed a large of charger replacements, I feel like most of them have been on older bikes, and most have not come back once replaced. We've seen a lot more failed chargers on 2014-2016 than 2018-2020. We've asked Zero about chargers, because they are fairly common, and the answer we get is that they are making continuous improvements.

A while back I asked about isolation issues as a cause, and I got a flat denial. They also mentioned that waterproofing has been significantly improved over the years. I don't really know one way or the other, but I thought I'd mention that. I'd love to see some data but they don't usually share too much with us 

[DonTom]

Guilty as charged, I've been working at a Zero dealer for a while. What I've noticed a large of charger replacements, I feel like most of them have been on older bikes, and most have not come back once replaced. We've seen a lot more failed chargers on 2014-2016 than 2018-2020.

Why is there no mention of year 2017? Was there a version change in the middle of that year? If so, is there a way I can tell which I have? 

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Auriga]

Sorry about that, 2017 is right in the middle. They revved the part number on the charger case and added a big ferrite to one of the charge cables. That means you have one of the more recent major versions. There was some talk about changing the potting material to be more water resistant on the inside when the zero rep came by sometime in the last year or so. I'm not sure if they revved the part # again for that.

Maybe it's worth tracking part #s on AF1 or similiar, to at least give an idea something might have changed. I'd like to see a teardown of a recent charger to confirm. Trouble is I haven't seen a recent failure, and Zero tends to collect all recent failures for analysis and warranty purposes.

[DonTom]

I really think the solution would be to use a stand-alone off-board charger as has been suggested by others and just give up on the OBC, unless Zero comes up with an entirely new unit that is more robust - which seems unlikely to me.   

Why not invest in the Delta-Q QC anyway? Then you have  choices, including less charge times as well as you can still charge when your new OBC craps out. 

Since each charger (OBC plus Delta Q-charger) draws more than ten amps, they cannot both be on the same 20 amp house circuit breaker.

FWIW, Elk Grove Power Sports normally keeps one in stock. $600.00. They recently moved about a mile away from their old shop. It's now a much larger shop and they now also deal with Indian Motorcycles. They have MANY Zeros in stock. I took a ride down there several weeks ago. On my Energica, of course. BTW, I hear they are going to soon add a J-1772 charge station to their new building.

An even better choice (if you don't mind doing your own wiring to the bike's motor controller battery inputs) is to buy a 2,500 watt unit from Elcon in Sacramento,  all programmed up for your Zero. They cost $700.00 but are more than twice the KW of the Delta Q  Zero shops sell when used with 240 VAC. They also work at 120 VAC at around  1,375 watts output, about the same as your Zero OBC. They draw from 12.4 to 18 amps on the AC input, on either 120 or 240 VAC depending on where they are in the charge cycle.

My two are the model Elcon  TCCH-84-22. Looks exactly like the  one shown here . Looks like mine is perhaps  already obsolete, as I see no mention of the "-22" model.

Anyway, you may send them an e-mail at:

 Elcon@jps.net

I have experience with both as I own  seven Delta Q chargers and two Elcon 2500 Watt units. With the Delta Q's, two at each house. One I leave in my RV. I use the two Elcons on the road, one in each side bag  and charge my SR at 6.3 KW (up to 8.3 KW at home, if I am in a hurry, by adding in two Delta Q chargers). I have not yet had any issues with any of the chargers I own, including the OBCs.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DonTom]

and added a big ferrite to one of the charge cables. That means you have one of the more recent major versions.

I probably have the older versions  as I have not noticed and  "big ferrite" on either of my bikes.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Richard230]

and added a big ferrite to one of the charge cables. That means you have one of the more recent major versions.

I probably have the older versions  as I have not noticed and  "big ferrite" on either of my bikes.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

The charger that I installed on my daughter's 2014 Zero last year came with one of those boxes on the power cable. Her charger did not have one. But my 2018 S does have it because we had to look at how its power cord and ferrite box was routed and located on my bike to get it installed on her bike correctly.  BTW, my son-in-law called the box a "choke" and said it was there to control sparks when the power cord was plugged in. I can not vouch for his comments. 

[Richard230]

This morning I spent an hour with a screwdriver, hammer and a chisel prying apart the Zero's failed charger, after removing many small screws. The charger electronics were completely potted in a rubber shock absorbing compound that had to be chopped and peeled away. I managed to get the top of the charger exposed where it apparently overheated. The steel box of the charger had a burned hole in the top, which apparently was the result of a component catching fire which caused an upheaval of the circuit board that you can see to the upper middle left of the board as a black open area. That area is open and raised, which is not too obvious in the attached photo. The condition of the rest of the charger doesn't look all that great, either. I am very glad that the charger had some sort of fuse that killed the power before any more damage could be done.

I also took apart one of the ferrite choke boxes, which contained two halves of metal, but no electronics. They were just clamped over the insulation of the power cord. It is a mystery to me what they do and how they work.