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[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Thanks Brian.  I'll tackle the belly pan on the weekend. 

What is the BMS?

What you need to know typically starts with the BMS reset procedure, which shows the window I was talking about where dust or moisture might be getting in. This window needs to be covered by a rubber plug normally:
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS_Reset_Procedure

The article about the Zero BMS is in need of more work but at least has some explanations:
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Battery_Management_System

Basically, it's a special circuit board under the front plate of the battery case that manages cell balancing and all of the safety features around the battery, and operates the contactor. Definitely focus on the window first, and then consider removing the front plate of the battery to inspect it for dirt and debris that might be causing problems.

DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING on the BMS (other than the reset buttons) if you aren't practiced in electrical safety. Get some photos of anything you inspect so someone here or elsewhere can check for issues. If you find dirt, a light dry brush (with any metalic parts wrapped in electrical tape or similar) to sweep it off and out of the area is suitable, but no forced air should be used.

[quixotic]

Thanks for all your help, Brian.  I'll report back on the weekend.

(I don't know why I had bad feelings about the belly pan.  I just remember a lot of cussing a few years ago, when I was trying to trace down a rattle (which has since disappeared), and I tried to remove the pan, thinking that a pebble or two had fallen in there.  I had a brief look at pan and the hex bolts today, and I don't know what all the fuss could have been about).

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

It could be that the pan for 2013 is a little different when it comes to uncovering the onboard charger units.

One way to make removing stuff from the bottom of the bike easier is to have an adjustable lift or blocks under the bike but not supporting it, so as you loosen the pan bolts, it can immediately rest on the lift until it's ready to pull off.

[quixotic]

Well, I took off the belly pan and inspected the charger.  And I opened up BMS and did a re-set.  Neither location showed any significant grunge (photos attached).

The only thing of significance that occurred was that after the re-set, the coded lights did the "temperature disable" code for about 10 or 15 minutes (with key off), and then after the coding lights went blank, I turned the key on and instead of the bars only going up to 8, I actually got 9 bars (yes!)

After that, I checked with the zerospy app, and the only significant (maybe ?) changes were that the min/max went from 3404/4142 mv to 3405/4155 mv, and the amp-hours went from 23/70 to 21/71.  I currently have it plugged in, and the lights are doing the balancing act, so I'll check with the zerospy app after another day or so. 

Going forward, I'm just wondering how to keep things from getting worse -- at least until someone in either Calgary or Edmonton decides to open a Zero franchise.  I'll certainly get a 240v installation done in the garage, and just keep the bike plugged in at all times (when not riding), but other than that, is there anything else I should do?  If the bike can charge to 9 bars, I'd be quite satisfied with that, since my commute is quite short.   

[TEV]

Just let it plugged in as much as possible,  hopefully,  the BMS will be able to balance the cells.

[quixotic]

Now I'm REALLY po'd at Zero.  Their battery app (not zerospy) specified something about putting the kickstand down when using it.  Now the bike won't move forward, because it thinks the kickstand is always up. 

[quixotic]

Now I'm REALLY po'd at Zero.  Their battery app (not zerospy) specified something about putting the kickstand down when using it.  Now the bike won't move forward, because it thinks the kickstand is always up. 

  ...um, that last word should read "down"

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I want to be clear that your minimum cell voltage reading is highly concerning (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Battery_Voltage suggests that at least one cell is at 0% SoC equivalent), in addition to the per-cell grounding resistances, and if charging does not change that, your battery could be in serious trouble soon, and I don't think you should ride that bike in its current imbalance state.

Please extract and post or decode those BMS logs to see all the cell voltages individually, and probably more information about isolation faults.

Your charger doesn't appear visibly grimy, and there's no obvious sign of corrosion, but there could be a problem that isn't visible.

It is good to see that the grease is still present under the BMS window (and that presumably the cover is still in place normally), but that's not the full story.

Your kickstand switch does seem faulty, and might be worth carefully cleaning and/or replacing. (see https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Kickstand_Switch). I'm not sure why that's worth irritation at Zero - sensors get dirty and can fail after 7 years in the field without maintenance. That's life with machines. You can disable the kickstand switch interlock via the MBB console (at your own risk) but it'd be better to fix the sensor while you wait for the battery to recover.

I want to reiterate that the cell voltages and isolation fault listings are absolutely critical. I think you should plan to take the front plate off of the battery and inspect the BMS fully (very carefully) to see whether it seems to be clean. There are a particular set of contacts from the BMS to the cells that are at full voltage but might have or be causing issues.

[quixotic]

Please extract and post or decode those BMS logs to see all the cell voltages individually, and probably more information about isolation faults.

Your kickstand switch does seem faulty, and might be worth carefully cleaning and/or replacing. (see https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Kickstand_Switch). I'm not sure why that's worth irritation at Zero - sensors get dirty and can fail after 7 years in the field without maintenance. That's life with machines. You can disable the kickstand switch interlock via the MBB console (at your own risk) but it'd be better to fix the sensor while you wait for the battery to recover.

Thanks Brian.  Are the BMS logs the same as the bin file attachment that I posted in reply #12 of this thread?

As for the kickstand problem, I suspect it has something to do with Zero's app, since the problem occurred immediately after I used their app (which told me to put the stand down when I was using the app) to get the bin file.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Please extract and post or decode those BMS logs to see all the cell voltages individually, and probably more information about isolation faults.

Your kickstand switch does seem faulty, and might be worth carefully cleaning and/or replacing. (see https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Kickstand_Switch). I'm not sure why that's worth irritation at Zero - sensors get dirty and can fail after 7 years in the field without maintenance. That's life with machines. You can disable the kickstand switch interlock via the MBB console (at your own risk) but it'd be better to fix the sensor while you wait for the battery to recover.

Thanks Brian.  Are the BMS logs the same as the bin file attachment that I posted in reply #12 of this thread?

No. If the filename has "MBB" in it, it's from the MBB. BMS logs have "BMS" in the filename. Pretty straightforward. You have to select that option when extracting logs from the bike, and it takes a much longer amount of time for technical reasons.

As for the kickstand problem, I suspect it has something to do with Zero's app, since the problem occurred immediately after I used their app (which told me to put the stand down when I was using the app) to get the bin file.

This is not something I want to get into, just pointing out an article that might help with troubleshooting.

[quixotic]

Unfortunately, the Zero app only gave me one choice for a log output, and that was the MBB file.  I went a similar route on Zerospy, and it gave me the attached data (copied from its email to an rtf file by me).  So if the latter isn't a BMS log, then I'm totally lost.

As for the kickstand issue, I feel like I dodged a bullet.  When the bike just gave me the blinking red light, I took the car into work, and fretted all day about the possibility of having paid big $$$ for my own little Superfund brick.  When I got home, I looked in the Zero manual, and all it said for a flashing red light, was call either Zero or the dealer (not a good option when the nearest dealer is 1,000 km away).  So as a last resort, I tried the Zero app again.  And then I read through the app directions again.  And hey!, then I remembered that it told me to hit the kill switch when using the app.  I had completely forgotten about that!  But it makes one wonder why Zero didn't include this simple bit of info in the part of the manual that helps one to interpret the various flashing red light possibilities.   

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

2013 models are hard to debug, and the lack of BMS logs (which I just recalled) would be pretty difficult for your situation. Can you log into the MBB console?

The 2013's Koso instrument cluster is also crudely minimal, so glad you were able to reason through the interlocks.

I'm not sure what to make of the ZeroSpy log. I'd need to know what the payloads mean.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I just reviewed your MBB logs again, and honestly at this point I suspect your BMS has faults or something - that's the most likely component that has access to all the cells and they're sort of all 100kOhms to ground. Maybe the cell balancing circuitry itself has issues.

A little napkin math says that 116V divided by the 100kOhm to ground yields about 1mA (milliamp), so this ground is relatively subtle, not catastrophic, but the low cell(s) readings are a big warning sign that something else might be wrong.

So, I do think a careful inspection of the BMS (with photos) behind the front cover of the pack is in order. I don't know how to instruct you on electrical safety properly from afar, but know that the full pack 116V goes though there, so take care to retrieve/retain any bolts or washers with magnetic-tipped tools, and wrap any long tool elements (screwdriver shaft, wrench handle) with electrical tape to avoid making a contact between a live terminal and ground.

FWIW the way the dealer checks the BMS console and pulls BMS logs on a 2013 is through the front panel, plugging in a serial cable into the port under the grease.

[Crissa]

You're supposed to use the kill switch a bit more often than that ;

-Crissa

[quixotic]

You're supposed to use the kill switch a bit more often than that ;

-Crissa

I've been riding motorcycles since 1974, and as far as I recall, the kill switch was only ever intended as a device to play sneaky tricks on one's friends.