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[CessnaDriver]

2017 SR

You may recall my post from January about the dealer replacing the Motor Controller ($2k) and performing a motor commissioning.  The bike never was back to the way it was, but the thermal issues aren't nearly as bad as they are now.  (Motor temp was showing to be above 255°F and it was being put into Phase I thermal protection.  Now, it's showing ~170°F on a warm day, even though actual motor temp isn't anywhere close to that).

Other symptoms include a jerkiness when I start moving from a stop. 

Anyway, I'm wondering if some of the motor windings have been damaged and have shorted to each other.  I have over 30k miles on it.. and let's just say I've been extremely fond of the incredible power the thing has been able to produce (read: I usually gun it whenever my light turns green  )  So, I'm now sheepishly paying for said fun.

Thoughts?  Recapping-
-Motor temp reads far higher than actual - I had a laser thermometer on it one day when it was 40° out and motor was 80°, dash was showing 150°ish IIRC
-Jerkiness when I start moving from a stop.

[KuRi]

When you say the motor is not the same... do you mean power? torque? max speed?

I have been over 100ºC some times at highway speeds (one time I even got a warning on the dashboard) but the bike keeps running fast

[TheRan]

You won't get an accurate reading on the motor temp, you're measuring the housing temp (which is inherently inaccurate with an IR thermometer) while the bike measures the internal temperature. 255°F is 124°C and I've had my 2019 DS go that high before (at which point it flashed the thermal warning on the dash and started limiting power), 150°F is only 66°C which seems perfectly reasonable to me unless you're only cruising about at 30mph with moderate acceleration. In comparison 80°F is 26°C and my bike is typically reading around 30°C before I even start riding (I have a feeling the sensor reads a bit high).

[CessnaDriver]

When you say the motor is not the same... do you mean power? torque? max speed?

Power seems to be down, range seems to have taken a hit, especially highway range!  I used to be able to go 80 miles at 70 mph. The other day, I barely made 50 before my battery read 00 and I had to find a charging station.

And that jerky start is really concerning.

[CessnaDriver]

A 60 degree spread between what the motor says and what my thermometer says? That's a big gap. I'd spot you 10 or 20 degrees, but 60? Especially at 45mph with moderate acceleration.

I've never seen motor temps this high. Did Zero update their firmware that inflates motor temps in a half 'backside" way to protect the motor?  so? I keep coming back to the idea that my motor is cooked. Maybe Zero found out motors were cooking and added a multiplier to the temp readings to put bikes into thermal limit sooner.

[ScootCoupe]

How comfortable are you with working on some of the high voltage components? You could always unbolt the phase wires from the controller, making sure to mark which wires go to where and measure your winding resistance between phases and look for any irregularity.

You would need to do a 4 wire measurement in order for this to work because the winding resistance is too low to measure directly with a regular volt meter. You will need two multimeters, one set to current and one set to resistance, and a regulated power supply. I like some of the DPS power supplies, inexpensive and fairly accurate with good support. I recommend the DPS5020 for this as the more amps you can push through the windings, the more accurate your measurement will be.

https://usa.banggood.com/RIDEN-DPS5020-Constant-Voltage-Current-Step-Down-Communication-Digital-Power-Supply-Module-p-1181200.html?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_organic&gpla=1&gmcCountry=US&utm_content=shopping&utm_campaign=usg-pc&currency=USD&createTmp=1&ID=514833&cur_warehouse=CN

So for your measurement, you take the power supply output, set it to 8amps or so, and hook it up through the multimeter set to the 10A scale and complete the circuit through windings U to V. Then you take the other multimeter and measure the voltage between the winding lugs, making sure to touch the lugs themselves. From there it is a matter of taking the voltage drop reported by the volt meter and dividing it by the current measured by the ampmeter to get your winding resistance, V/I=R. I would look for discrepancies between windings and go from there.

[TheRan]

A 60 degree spread between what the motor says and what my thermometer says? That's a big gap. I'd spot you 10 or 20 degrees, but 60? Especially at 45mph with moderate acceleration.

I've never seen motor temps this high. Did Zero update their firmware that inflates motor temps in a half 'backside" way to protect the motor?  so? I keep coming back to the idea that my motor is cooked. Maybe Zero found out motors were cooking and added a multiplier to the temp readings to put bikes into thermal limit sooner.

Depending on where the temperature sensor is placed inside the motor a 60-70°F difference between it and the housing wouldn't be that unusual, taking into account that the sensor seems to read a bit high (but not in the region of 100°F high) and the inaccuracy of taking a reading straight off the housing with a non-contact thermometer.

How enthusiastically were you riding the bike prior to taking the reading? If you were riding as you usually would, "gunning it", and that only resulted in a 40°F rise in the motor temperature (4°C to about 26°C) does that sound realistic to you? With such little heat output no one would ever have overheating issues and thermal throttling even on the hottest Summer days with sustained high speed riding.

[valnar]

You won't get an accurate reading on the motor temp, you're measuring the housing temp (which is inherently inaccurate with an IR thermometer)

It might be a fun exercise to post a spreadsheet comparison that correlates external housing temp with what the bike reports internally.  I know...it may not be that accurate, but at least those numbers from a "normal" functioning bike might give the outliers something to compare against.

[ESokoloff]

You won't get an accurate reading on the motor temp, you're measuring the housing temp (which is inherently inaccurate with an IR thermometer)

It might be a fun exercise to post a spreadsheet comparison that correlates external housing temp with what the bike reports internally.  I know...it may not be that accurate, but at least those numbers from a "normal" functioning bike might give the outliers something to compare against.

IR thermometers can be very inaccurate.
Here are some tips on how to get best readings... https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/temperature/how-to-get-great-results-with-an-infrared-thermometer


I suggest checking motor temperature after a lengthy non running period to check accuracy of sensor.
This will allow motor temp to equalize to its ambient which can then be easily checked.

[CessnaDriver]

Haven't ridden in 2 days.  30°F spread between the motor temp and other sensors.  Perhaps the sensor got cooked along with the motor.

I'm inclined to meter out the motor.  I'd just need to find a garage in which to do it.  I live in an apartment and the parking lot is less than ideal.

[TheRan]

That's about what I get, 30°C or so. I'm actually wondering if there's a lower bound on the sensor and it just doesn't go below that temp, it kind of makes sense as it will easily get above that. Either that or it is just about 15°C too high (my ambient temps are similar to yours too).

[ESokoloff]

Haven't ridden in 2 days.  30°F spread between the motor temp and other sensors.  Perhaps the sensor got cooked along with the motor.

I doubt the sensor(s) got cooked.
More like contamination on connection(s) is my guess (but that’s only a guess vs known fact).
I believe these sensors work on a temperature/resistance and therefore contamination could be decreasing the sensor(s) resistance thus altering the temperature.

The fact that you have a 30° Delta (temperature differential) at rest proves you have a sensor(s) inaccuracy issue.

[nnelson65]

I think this behavior is quite common...my bike shows a consistent +30degF on motor temp relative to ambient after sitting overnight, and I believe I've read that others see similar behavior. 

But the loss of range/jerkiness make me suspect that the motor commissioning didn't go well.  I've seen first-hand that is process can be a bit finicky, especially with an older bike/motor, and I had a similar drop in range after a dealer-performed commissioning about 1.5 years ago.  My range improved after the motor was recommissioned a second/third/fourth/fifth time.

Haven't ridden in 2 days.  30°F spread between the motor temp and other sensors.  Perhaps the sensor got cooked along with the motor.

I'm inclined to meter out the motor.  I'd just need to find a garage in which to do it.  I live in an apartment and the parking lot is less than ideal.

[Curt]

I agree with nnelson65 that the motor needs to re-commissioned. The motor at 30K is probably just fine including windings and bearings. If the angle sensor (encoder) is out of whack it could explain the jerky start and reduced range. I'm making all this stuff up.

[CessnaDriver]

I agree with nnelson65 that the motor needs to re-commissioned. The motor at 30K is probably just fine including windings and bearings. If the angle sensor (encoder) is out of whack it could explain the jerky start and reduced range. I'm making all this stuff up.

You're making all this stuff up? o.0 Whaaa?

Anyway, I've scheduled an appointment next week with another dealer to have the motor recommissioned.   I'll report back.