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[JaimeC]

Since I've been pretty much "socially distancing" myself from everyone (both voluntarily and involuntarily) I've had PLENTY of time for reading.  One thing that has me wondering:  I've seen people talking about the 12v battery failing in the BMW eScooter and I've seen discussions here regarding the SR/F and it's 12v battery.  A video I watched explaining electric vehicles (seriously though... even though they said "vehicles" it was ALL about CARS) said they all had a twelve volt battery.

However... I have NEVER heard of a 12v battery in either my 2016 or my 2018 S, even though it obviously has a 12 volt electrical circuit to drive the horn, headlights, tail lights, brake light and accessory socket.

Does it have a 12v battery?  If not, how come they can get away with NOT having one and everyone else on the planet seems to feel they needed to add one when they designed their vehicle (INCLUDING Zero with their latest generation models)??

[kasmtk]

SR/S and above have a 12v battery- earlier models not


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DonTom]

However... I have NEVER heard of a 12v battery in either my 2016 or my 2018 S, even though it obviously has a 12 volt electrical circuit to drive the horn, headlights, tail lights, brake light and accessory socket.

The older Zeros use a "DC to DC converter".  It also regulates the voltage so it stays at 13.8 VDC regardless of the main battery voltage where it gets its power.

But some vehicles need power when the key is out. Or when no real key is involved, such as my Tesla. It has a 12 volt battery so it can receive updates and such when the car is off otherwise. The older Zeros have no such requirements and can be totally shut down when off. Key must even be in for the emergency blinkers, unlike most other vehicles.

IIRC, Energica does it a third way. I think it runs from a 12 volt tap from the main battery. The method used and why in each  is a part of the design.

In my Tesla, if the 12 volt battery goes dead, I will not be able to open the doors from the outside. So they have two wires hidden behind a plug that I can use 12 volts on to open the doors.  But I have also seen that happen in an ICE vehicle that I once owned. But there is no real key to use  in Teslas. But in either case, you're not going anywhere without 12 volts from somewhere. So the Tesla issue is not really any larger than any other vehicle with a 12 volt battery.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[talon]

I vote it's a redundant safety measure that was overlooked for weight savings and simplicity pre-SR/F. If my Zero dies at 0% and opens the contactor, the lights all go out. I had it happen at night once. Having to cycle the key to get seconds of hazard light while pushing a bike across a street SUCKS. As it sits now, I don't ride under 5% like you shouldn't ride an ICE bike on fumes--one less thing to replace regularly.

[JaimeC]

Okay, another "12v Battery Question" then:  For those vehicles that DO have an accessory 12v battery... is it also Lithium based, or a more traditional lead acid based?  I ask because I understand the main battery is what keeps the 12v battery charged and I'm assuming that means it tries to keep the battery at or near 100%.  As has been discussed here many times, keeping a lithium battery at 100% for prolonged periods of time shortens its life whereas the lead acid batteries welcome being kept at a full charge to avoid sulfation...

[DonTom]

Okay, another "12v Battery Question" then:  For those vehicles that DO have an accessory 12v battery... is it also Lithium based, or a more traditional lead acid based?  I ask because I understand the main battery is what keeps the 12v battery charged and I'm assuming that means it tries to keep the battery at or near 100%.  As has been discussed here many times, keeping a lithium battery at 100% for prolonged periods of time shortens its life whereas the lead acid batteries welcome being kept at a full charge to avoid sulfation...

Again, that's a design question. Lead acid is a lot cheaper  than lithium-ion. But li-ion can work also and it doesn't need to stay at its full capacity to work and even if it did, it wouldn't be a big deal. The 12 volt battery will not cost thousands of dollars to replace, so keeping at a full charge is not much of an issue. Besides that, there are some lit-ion batteries that like a full charge, such as the older Zeros use.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Crissa]

I would assume the SR/x accessory battery is also lithium, since many new bikes are choosing lithium for its durability and lightness.

I don't know, and didn't look, tho.

The older bikes also don't have safety gear like ABS that need to function if the main battery goes out.  On my Mazda when the battery fails, everything goes out, and it's really bad.

An accessory battery can provide a low amount of current for longer time and greater efficiency than a DC-DC board can.  The SR/x bikes just recharge the accessory battery from the DC-DC board while the bike is on.

-Crissa

[didierm]

Okay, another "12v Battery Question" then:  For those vehicles that DO have an accessory 12v battery... is it also Lithium based, or a more traditional lead acid based?  I ask because I understand the main battery is what keeps the 12v battery charged and I'm assuming that means it tries to keep the battery at or near 100%.  As has been discussed here many times, keeping a lithium battery at 100% for prolonged periods of time shortens its life whereas the lead acid batteries welcome being kept at a full charge to avoid sulfation...

SR/F and SR/S have a 12V battery.

Quoting from the (SR/F) manual :
"Your Zero motorcycle is equipped with a 12 volt maintenance free battery to power the motorcycle’s systems when the key switch is in the OFF position."
...
"The 12 volt battery is charged from the motorcycle’s power pack. During regular operation and when connected to a charging cable, the MBB (Main Bike Board) will monitor the 12 volt battery’s charge level to ensure that it’s charge level is maintained."

The battery is LiFePO4 technology, and is required for (at least) the always-on cellular connectivity.
The battery does NOT feed the 12V accessory connectors.

I am not sure how well tested or reliable this  new set-up is.
I got (trustworthy) word that out of 10 sold SR/F's, at least 2 (including mine) had a failing battery. This is anecdotal, but nevertheless something to keep in mind.

My case (still unsolved, bike at dealership for the past month) seems a bit more complex :
after a 12V battery failure in the course of 24 hours during the weekend (guess what : I did not receive any pre-failure warnings from the "always-on" monitoring system via the cellular connection), a replacement battery at the dealership also went down the drain (pun intended), so in my guess (no word yet from Zero Europe), there is an issue with the MBB.



I am not quite sure I would have bought the bike, had I known beforehand, there is a 20% (anecdotal) chance I would have issues ; which,  in my case, Zero seems unprepared to cope with (if a customer is left in the dark without updates, there is no other option than not hoping for the best, but expecting the worst).

[Crissa]

A sample of ten units is not enough to make an estimate of failure rate, although that rate certainly sucks.

Of course they're unprepared for their global supply chain to be stuck at home for several months.  What system would be?

-Crissa

[stevenh]

Okay, another "12v Battery Question" then:  For those vehicles that DO have an accessory 12v battery... is it also Lithium based, or a more traditional lead acid based?  I ask because I understand the main battery is what keeps the 12v battery charged and I'm assuming that means it tries to keep the battery at or near 100%.  As has been discussed here many times, keeping a lithium battery at 100% for prolonged periods of time shortens its life whereas the lead acid batteries welcome being kept at a full charge to avoid sulfation...

SR/F and SR/S have a 12V battery.

Quoting from the (SR/F) manual :
"Your Zero motorcycle is equipped with a 12 volt maintenance free battery to power the motorcycle’s systems when the key switch is in the OFF position."
...
"The 12 volt battery is charged from the motorcycle’s power pack. During regular operation and when connected to a charging cable, the MBB (Main Bike Board) will monitor the 12 volt battery’s charge level to ensure that it’s charge level is maintained."

The battery is LiFePO4 technology, and is required for (at least) the always-on cellular connectivity.
The battery does NOT feed the 12V accessory connectors.

I am not sure how well tested or reliable this  new set-up is.
I got (trustworthy) word that out of 10 sold SR/F's, at least 2 (including mine) had a failing battery. This is anecdotal, but nevertheless something to keep in mind.

My case (still unsolved, bike at dealership for the past month) seems a bit more complex :
after a 12V battery failure in the course of 24 hours during the weekend (guess what : I did not receive any pre-failure warnings from the "always-on" monitoring system via the cellular connection), a replacement battery at the dealership also went down the drain (pun intended), so in my guess (no word yet from Zero Europe), there is an issue with the MBB.



I am not quite sure I would have bought the bike, had I known beforehand, there is a 20% (anecdotal) chance I would have issues ; which,  in my case, Zero seems unprepared to cope with (if a customer is left in the dark without updates, there is no other option than not hoping for the best, but expecting the worst).

My 12v battery is also not holding voltage (can't do a firmware update to 17 for example).  I was thinking of trying to manually charge the LiFePO4, but have no idea what to use to do so.  I have several hobby LiPo chargers, but sounds like it may be a different beast.  That would help narrow down the problem between the battery and it's charging system (or some parasitic drain, like a bad cellular module).

Steve

[didierm]

My 12v battery is also not holding voltage (can't do a firmware update to 17 for example).  I was thinking of trying to manually charge the LiFePO4, but have no idea what to use to do so.  I have several hobby LiPo chargers, but sounds like it may be a different beast.  That would help narrow down the problem between the battery and it's charging system (or some parasitic drain, like a bad cellular module).

Steve

The manual mentions auxillary LiPo chargers (with a disconnected battery).
However, take heed of your warranty.

While I would have been perfectly able to change the defunct battery myself (and the procedure is documented in the manual, hence the battery could be considered a CRU), the dealership explicitly requested to bring the bike in , for reasons of warranty (the bike is 3 months old, 800 km).

After a battery replacement, my issue is not resolved.

Furthermore, I'd guess the MBB would take care of parasitic drains, and keep the 12V battery sufficiently charged. Failing to do so may be a sign of issues not at the battery, but perhaps further up the chain ?

[Crissa]

It's not legal in the US for a warranty to be voided by repairing a component.

-Crissa

[DonTom]

It's not legal in the US for a warranty to be voided by repairing a component.

-Crissa

True, but all warranty work must be done at dealers. IOW, they will not give you a part that failed while under warranty without them replacing it themselves. The vehicle has to be at the dealer to get the part under warranty.

My front ABS sensor crapped out on my SR while it was in warranty. I decided I will buy the part on line and install it myself, just because it is less hassle than bringing the bike to a dealer.

-Don-   Auburn, CA

[Crissa]

The FTC doesn't say, but I don't believe they can make that requirement, either.

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0138-auto-warranties-routine-maintenance

Apple and Tesla have been getting in trouble for this, but enforcement has been weak.

They have to prove your repair did the damage, so generally charging or replacing the accessory battery should be something you can do and they cannot say voids the warranty.  Those old stickers 'warranty void if opened' are no longer valid, basically.

-Crissa

[Auriga]

I think both Crissa and DomTom are right.

DomTom is correct in saying that a manufacturer can require warranty work be done at authorized dealers. For example, they are not required to ship a replacement charger under warranty to you individually or to pay you to replace it.
I imageine they make the argument that only trained techs have the tools and skills to properly diagnose and repair issues,

Crissa is right in that the warranty is still good unless they prove repair outside their dealer caused a problem . However, if they do so obviously they won't pay to get it fixed,