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[DonTom]

That is a great dissertation, MostlyBonkers.  Which I fully agree with.  But I wouldn't have been able to explain the advantages of coasting with no regen nearly as well as you did.   

On hilly freeways, such as between my house in Auburn and here in Reno, it is best to use no regen at all. Coast down the hill to help get up the next hill. That gives more than the 10% power we can get back from REGEN.

But what some people here do not realize (and I used to be one of them) is that we can always set our bikes to full regen and NOT use it at all while going down hill by using throttle control. Simply do NOT ever release the throttle all the way back until you MUST slow down or stop.  Coast with full regen settings with no regen at all. You can see on the screen where the no regen is at with a full regen setting. No positive and no negative bars is NO regen REGARDLESS of regen settings. IOW, the very best way to do it, IMO,  is to set regen very high BUT do NOT use it except when you want to. Do it by throttle control and get out of the bad habit of releasing the throttle all the way back.

I went form very low regen settings to very high REGEN setting  and I now often  use NO regen at all while slowing down  by controlling it from the throttle.  The lower regen settings are rather useless unless you want to keep on releasing the throttle. Just get out of the habit and control the regen from the throttle with high regen settings. Now you have the choice of how much REGEN to use without changing the settings. And having NO deceleration  REGEN at all is possible from the highest deceleration REGEN settings.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

The throttle is far to twitchy to try to match what the zero point is.  It's far easier to set min regen at slack throttle and then have more of the throttle to play with for your speed.

The throttle os a mechanical device from 0 to 100 - if you add regen to the throttle you're making those n points map to a larger range from -100 to 100 and it doesn't map smoothly.  (Probably because throttle actually is like 0 to 1000 whereas regen is -10 to -100)

Which is why most of us chose to do it the other way, and depend upon the brake to equal adding regen in the mix.  When braking regen is used, the throttle mapping shifts the n positions down by the amount of regen you have assigned to braking regen.

So someone with regen set primarily on their braking can do what Don suggests, but they only have to hold the brake at the same time as the throttle.

-Crissa

[Richard230]

I agree with Crissa.  I have tried Don's method of holding the throttle at a neutral position to prevent regen from activating, but I found it to be too touchy and too much work for me.  Just completely closing the throttle and coasting is more relaxing, especially when going down a long hill.  Having said that, riders should try both methods and use the one that works best for them   

[DonTom]

The throttle is far to twitchy to try to match what the zero point is.  It's far easier to set min regen at slack throttle and then have more of the throttle to play with for your speed.

You don't have to be at that exact zero regen spot.  Zeros coast very poorly even when regen is turned off to nothing (Energias coast better when regen is off) . Just go the same speed while going  downhill. There is no real need to know exactly  where the no regen-point is,  but you can find it by looking at the screen. You waste power even with no regen when the bike slows down. Just stay at a steady speed, just like Zero recommends for best range.

The only benefit of regen is when you're FORCED to slow down. Or else you're just wasting power as it will take more power to speed back up than you can save from slowing down regardless of your regen setting.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

And I want to say, I think the Energica throttle is almost certainly different than the Zero one!  So it might not be as twitchy with those settings, and of course you would like your controls not to differ to radically between bikes.

There's no one right way to ride a bike, primarily because it's so physical.  And on an electric, we get to match those controls like no other bikes before.

Like, I've been playing No Man's Sky in VR recently (because how else am I going to get out of the house at night?) and I ended up using the old VR set instead of my spouse's fancy new one.  The fancy new one has superior controls with much finer adjustments... But when I got into the rig and tried to play after hours of learning the other controllers, I realized it was just quicker for me to use the inferior controls that I knew rather than the superior controllers I didn't.  I started to play using those controls, and they're sooo much better, but... When it comes to knowing how to flick things around, well, I have the hours practice using the others.  So if I want to just play instead of fumble for what the right controls are, well, I'm going to have to use the older controllers even with the newer rig.

That applies here; you're used to the setup on your Energica (which is probably superior in this case) and so you're making it match up.

It's really a safety thing, too, to have it respond like you expect it to.

I've been finding it kinda neat to switch over to Sport Mode which has All The Regen which is usually way too much for my riding, but I can see where in the twists (and on the freeway) it's useful as you generally are either accelerating or braking with little in between.  So I flip between the three modes quite comfortably now, hopefully more as I get better at riding!

-Crissa

[DonTom]

And I want to say, I think the Energica throttle is almost certainly different than the Zero one! 

Yes, Zero is MUCH better at slow speeds if you don't count the slow forward that the Energica has (less than 2 MPH at WOT).

The Energica wants to fly in the normal mode at the slightest bit of throttle. It really needs the Slow Forward. That's why it has such. It is the same speed as the reverse.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[MostlyBonkers]

That is a great dissertation, MostlyBonkers.  Which I fully agree with.  But I wouldn't have been able to explain the advantages of coasting with no regen nearly as well as you did.   

Thanks Richard, it's great to hear that my efforts didn't go to waste and made sense to somebody other than myself! [emoji106]

[MostlyBonkers]

I agree with Crissa.  I have tried Don's method of holding the throttle at a neutral position to prevent regen from activating, but I found it to be too touchy and too much work for me.  Just completely closing the throttle and coasting is more relaxing, especially when going down a long hill.  Having said that, riders should try both methods and use the one that works best for them   

+1  It's so much less effort to just close the throttle when you don't need to accelerate.  I've also tried coasting as Don describes. If anything it's unsafe as it's far too distracting.  We need to be looking at the road and concentrating on the traffic rather than faffing around with the throttle at looking at power and torque graphs.

[DonTom]

If anything it's unsafe as it's far too distracting.  We need to be looking at the road and concentrating on the traffic rather than faffing around with the throttle at looking at power and torque graphs.

Why look? Do exactly what Zero recommends, maintain a steady speed, even while going downhill.

Why is it important to know where there is no regen?  Especially on a Zero which will slow down fast even when it has no regen while going down hill.

But if one really wants to know where the same point is of no regen, and no power used,  you can look, but it certainly isn't important to know where the exact spot is. The bike coasts poorly there also. Even while going down hill, it requires some throttle  to maintain a reasonable  speed.

Anyway, I think we all realize it's just a personal preference. There is really no right or wrong way to do it, in most cases.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

Don's method is better if you end up going down long hills of various steepness.  Otherwise you have to regen for a little while, coast for a little while, regen for a little while... Or hold the throttle open while you regen to lower it.

But most hills aren't that long.

-Crissa

[MostlyBonkers]

The throttle is far to twitchy to try to match what the zero point is.  It's far easier to set min regen at slack throttle and then have more of the throttle to play with for your speed.

You don't have to be at that exact zero regen spot.  Zeros coast very poorly even when regen is turned off to nothing (Energias coast better when regen is off) . Just go the same speed while going  downhill. There is no real need to know exactly  where the no regen-point is,  but you can find it by looking at the screen. You waste power even with no regen when the bike slows down. Just stay at a steady speed, just like Zero recommends for best range.

The only benefit of regen is when you're FORCED to slow down. Or else you're just wasting power as it will take more power to speed back up than you can save from slowing down regardless of your regen setting.

-Don-  Reno, NV

You're nothing if not stubborn, Don!  ;-)

I think we all understand what you're getting at, it's just that we much prefer to keep things simple and easy.  If the throttle had a larger dead spot before progressive regen as you twist the throttle forward, then we might use that.  There was an early electric scooter that did that (I forget the name), and I wish Zero and other manufacturers would implement it.  I love the idea of being able to vary the amount of regen with such an intuitive method.

I have to address one statement you made:


"You waste power even with no regen when the bike slows down. Just stay at a steady speed, just like Zero recommends for best range."

For starters, Zero don't get everything right so their advice is best taken with caution.  They royally screwed up by advising customers to leave their bikes plugged in all the time, for years I might add! 

I have an innate need to correct the first part of your quote: You don't waste power when the bike slows down, the bike loses kinetic energy.  That kinetic energy is lost to drag when coasting.  You do require power to restore that kinetic energy to either maintain a constant speed or get back up to speed if the bike has slowed.

The vast majority of power used to maintain any given speed goes to balancing the forces of aerodynamic drag.  Aerodynamic drag increases as the cube of velocity.  That means it also decreases significantly as you shed speed.  Therefore a bit of coasting, when conditions allow, is always a good thing as the power consumed getting back up to speed will be less than what would have been used maintaining it.

I'm not a hypermiler, but I've read their tips. One of which encourages getting up to speed and coasting where possible. Another suggests coasting a little towards to top of a hill and letting gravity bring you back up to speed on the other side.  None of that involves maintaining a constant speed.

Perhaps the most important point to make though, is that saving relatively small amounts of energy, or extending your range by a couple of miles or so, should be at the bottom of the list of things to do on a motorcycle.  Safety comes first and then having a bit of fun.  That's why I'm not so keen on the people out there going to extremes to get an extra mile or two to the gallon.  Unless they are already very competent drivers, or riders, they are undoubtedly putting others at risk by giving themselves an extra workload.  They also hold up the poor buggers that get stuck behind them!

I hope this helps Don, along with some great comments from Crissa and Richard.

[Richard230]

That scooter that MostlyBonkers was thinking of was the Vectrix (check out the Vectrix forum, below).  I test rode one during the late 1990s at the San Rafael, CA, BMW shop. That two-way throttle was one of its best features, plus it also had a slow reverse. The throttle had a neutral position. As I recall if it was stopped, moving the throttle forward past the neutral position, would slowly move the scooter backward, but if the scooter was moving forward, moving the throttle forward would activate the regen feature. I have no idea why that throttle idea was never used again. Probably because whomever still owns the Vectrix brand still owns their patents. 

The scooter was really ahead of the time, although it was a bit too expensive for the market back then and they started selling the scooter through exclusive Italian-brand auto dealers (perhaps because of its high price), which is never a good idea for scooter or motorcycle sales. By the time motorcycle shops started trying to sell the brand, it was already too late as the factory's finances were rapidly sliding downhill.  Apparently, they just invested too much in design and development and could not generate enough sales and profit to pay back their development costs. The Vectrix brand tried coming back once or twice over the years, but that never worked out and I have no idea where things stand right now with the brand's intellectual property and particularly its neat throttle design.

[DonTom]

Don's method is better if you end up going down long hills of various steepness.  Otherwise you have to regen for a little while, coast for a little while, regen for a little while... Or hold the throttle open while you regen to lower it.

But most hills aren't that long.

-Crissa

Good point, as I-80 between here and Auburn is nothing but long hills and that is why I mention the way I now do it. At first, I kept Regen off to make that ride. I now have it always set at the max and use the throttle to adjust my regen. It does take some getting used to, but it is even safer after getting used to not ever releasing the throttle except for fast slowdowns or stops.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

So someone with regen set primarily on their braking can do what Don suggests, but they only have to hold the brake at the same time as the throttle.

AFAIK, only Zero adds REGEN by braking.

Energica and Tesla ONLY has deceleration regen, but many people still call it "braking REGEN" which adds to confusion.

I prefer Zero's method of increasing REGEN with the brakes. IMO, all EVs should do that. But AFAIK, only Zero does such.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

Honda and Toyota do braking with regen, I don't know about GM.

-Crissa